Baptism in the Holy Spirit


(Kurt Kruppe) #1

I am not posting this question to debate whether or not you believe in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. My question is if you think there are things in your life that hold you back from receiving the Baptism in the Holy spirit, or if its completely a gift from God no matter where you are in your faith?


(Kathleen) #2

Hi, @kkruppe! Thanks for the question. May I ask a quick clarifying question, just to make sure we’re starting at the same place? I am curious if you would distinguish between ‘baptism’ in the HS and the ‘indwelling’ of the HS? Can the HS indwell you without a formal baptism in the Spirit? I myself am trying to come to grips with the difference between the two, which is why I ask. :slight_smile:


(Kurt Kruppe) #3

Of course Kathleen, when we receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He guides us and comforts us. Among other things. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a gift from God ,that allows us to speak and pray in tongues, gives us the gift of prophecy, gift of healing , gift of faith, and special wisdom. This can be somewhat controversial, but I believe in the full power of the Holy Spirit. “The God I Never Knew” by Robert Morris is a great book on it.


(Timothy Loraditch) #4

I learned of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit when I was in high school. The church that I started to attend taught on it and practiced the spiritual gifts referenced here. I was Baptised in the Holy Spirit then. I was also going to a youth group elsewhere that did not teach on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit or practice the all of the gifts.

The key to receiving this baptism seems to be an openness to it. Many excellent fellowships practice this baptism and many equally good fellowships do not. I am closely connected with groups from both sides of the issue, and I have failed to find either type limited in their service to God when their hearts are focusing on Him.

The things that hinder the baptism would be lack of teaching within your congregation or fear of the unknown. God does not force Himself on us, but if we draw near to Him He will draw near to us. (James 4:8-10) What His drawing near to us will look like can be different from individual to individual. Each of us has different gifts. We do not all prophesy etc. (1 Corinthians 12:30).

If a Christian is concerned that they do not have any particular gift, rather than focusing on what they do not have they should focus on what they do have and be found faithful if that first. We can then trust God to supply the rest as He sees fit. (Luke 16:10). It is, however, ok to seek greater gifts. (1 Corinthians 12:31) we just should not feel that there is something wrong with us if we do not get the gifts we expect.


(Sandy) #5

“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?” Luke 11:13

Seems to me it is a gift. The only criteria being He is your Heavenly Father and you ask. If so being that one is truly born again, following Jesus, then they’re in the Word, hopefully getting right teaching to grow in grace and revelation knowledge of Jesus. Once attached to the Vine, the branch cannot help but bear (good) fruit! :slight_smile:


(Lauri Jones) #6

Hi Kkruppe,

Does that mean we have to be Baptist in the Holy Spirit in order to receive the other gifts?


(Lauri Jones) #7

Hi tfloraditch,

So a person has to be open to receiving, and not fear the unknown?
Can you expound on that please?


(Timothy Loraditch) #8

Hello @Lauri,

Yes, I can expound.

Stepping out in faith always involves a level of fear. God likes to draw us out of our comfort zone to cause us to grow in our relationship with Him. Otherwise, we risk walking in our own strength and taking credit for what we have done.

A typical example would be getting the sense in prayer that God is telling you the person next to you, whom you have never met, has a particular illness or issue they are asking God to resolve. You step out in faith and tell the person what God is saying to you, and ask them if this is true. Most people find this very fearful the first time. If you are not open to God speaking to you in this way you would never have bothered to say anything.

Now, if that same person had their arm in a cast and it was clear they had a broken arm and you say that God told you they had a broken arm. That doesn’t take a lot of faith and there is little fear of being wrong. Then again, God doesn’t get as much credit for what you did. It was quite obvious. Basically, it’s not that we don’t fear, we just have to be willing to step out in faith exercising the gifts God is giving us.

IMPORTANT NOTE!!! A Christian who does not believe in supernatural gifts and is not open to God using them in healing, words of wisdom, prophesy, speaking in tongues, etc. can still be used mightily by God and can still have a close relationship with God. They also still have the holy spirit since we all receive the spirit at conversion. God is willing to move through them in the way that they are open to.


(Lakshmi Mehta) #9

@kkruppe, thanks for posting this question and I think it is a question that many who want the baptism of the Holy Spirit struggle with. I agree to the thoughts already presented that our seeking and understanding of this doctrine are factors that come into play in receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees about the continuation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I think we can look at the book of Acts and study what preceded the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Waiting in prayer
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Being in one accord
Acts 2:1-2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Repentance and faith in Jesus
Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (In talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit, Peter is referring to the Pentecost experience in this chapter)

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (Gentiles) the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Desiring Obedience
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Eph 4: 30-31 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice.

Receiving God’s word even without formal public confession
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 - 44 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Knowledge, Not knowing about baptism led Apollo to not seek it.

Apollos a strong Christian who only knew John’s baptism (Acts 18:24-26) was instructed in the baptism of Holy Spirit by Paul.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost…6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

In all the instances above in Acts, I see that baptism of the Holy Spirit was a subsequent event that happened to those who repented and received the word about forgiveness of sins in Jesus. So there seem to be different levels of filling of the Holy Spirit. If we read Acts carefully, we also see that even those baptized in the Holy Spirit also needed continual filling. For example: Peter and John who were already baptized sought to be filled with the Spirit again ( Acts 4). So baptism of the Holy Spirit was just the first occurance of a greater filling that occurred after placing faith in Christ.

Baptism of Holy Spirit happened to new Gentile believers even before water baptism and to those matured in the knowledge of scripture like Apollo. So the maturity level in faith is no impediment to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The only requirement is repentance and an openness to receive the Holy Spirit through prayer. So while disobedience can grieve the Spirit, its repentance and not personal ability for obedience that opens the doors to the Holy Spirit. This baptism of Holy Spirit does not necessarily refer to speaking in tongues as Paul clarifies in 1 Cor 12:29-31.

Personally, I think there is a lot of misuse of the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and I see why it may seem wise to stay away from it altogether, especially when people seek it for emotional ecstasy. The true purpose rather was for the glory of God, for strengthening the church and testimony to unbelievers. Wrong motives can make one susceptible to the schemes of the enemy and receive wrong spirit (2 Cor 11: 3, 13-14). However based on 1 Cor 13:9-12, I believe that the true spiritual gifts will cease only when we see Jesus face to face and when we know everything completely. I still see things dimly, so I think the true gifts can still exist.

This reply is already lengthy and so I will stop here. Hope this helps. Look forward to any follow up questions or comments you may have.


(Lisa) #10

Hi

I have really appreciated this tread and it’s been very helpful. If I’ve understood the general sentiment there is a difference between a dwelling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. My follow up question is what was Jesus referring to in John 14, baptism or dwelling of the Spirit?
I did also recently have a conversion with someone who argues that Holy Spirit always dwells in everyone that is both believers and non-believers the only difference would be that the believer is allowing him to manifest and work in his life. I believe that Holy Spirit only dwells in believers but I also know that it takes Him working in us and revealing our sin which enables us to repent in the first place. So in essence my question is does Holy Spirit dwell in everyone? If no is there a difference between Him and the Spirit of God which entered man at creation Genesis 2? How then do you believe without the aid of Holy Spirit or his promptings?


(Lakshmi Mehta) #11

Hi @LisaRufaro , I too have been inspired to study more about the baptism of the holy spirit on account of this thread. You have raised several great questions and to a degree answered them too. Let me see if I can be of some help here.

Firstly, we can confidently say from scripture that the Spirit of God does not dwell in everyone but only in believers. The natural man is devoid of the Holy Spirit, is spiritually dead, unable to discern the things of God and follows the course of this world according to the evil one. If everyone had the Holy Spirit in them, then Jesus would not have said that we need to be born again by His Spirit. Jesus says flesh can give birth only to flesh which means there’s no Holy Spirit in the natural body. We are born again and saved through the regeneration of our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Here are some verses to support this answer:

John 3:3-6 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 : It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Jude 19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

Rom 8: 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him .

1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God , for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised

Eph 2: 2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Secondly, there is a difference between the natural man before the Fall and now. When God breathed into man, man became indwelt by God’s spirit and was spiritually alive. But when man sinned and decided to have his own way, death entered as the Holy Spirit withdrew from man. So, God provided a way through Jesus to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit again.

Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Finally, to answer your question on John 14, I think this refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirt . Up to that point, the disciples were used to Jesus being by their side and they wanted to follow Him wherever He went. But Jesus starts talking about His crucifixion and comforts them by saying that there is another Helper (Greek: Parakletos- called to one’s side), the Spirit of truth, coming who will abide with them forever in them .

John 14:16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you .

Until then, they only had the experience of the Holy Spirit with them, but not in them. So, this experience of indwelling was new!

The Spirit would testify about Jesus and guide them into all truth (John 14:25-26, John 15:26-27, John 16:12-15). The Helper was to come not just for the apostles but also to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement (John 16:8-11). Considering this mention of the Holy Spirit involves everyone – the disciples and the world, John 14 could be referring to being born again and indwelt by the Spirit. However, John 14 could also mean the whole continuum, of first being indwelt by the Spirit and later baptism. Both events are made possible only because of resurrection. Jesus commanded the disciples to wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit to receive power to be His witnesses (Acts 1:5-8) despite breathing the Holy Spirit upon the disciples soon after His resurrection (John 20:22). I don’t think its that necessary to sort this out perfectly. The important thing is to know that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit by faith in Jesus and we can be filled with His Spirit continually. Some think this filling is by prayer, some think its by obedience and some both. Some are open to supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit and some think they have ceased. Whatever the conviction about spiritual gifts, believers agree that we can bring God glory with our gifts only by submission to His will rather than using them per our will.

Eph 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,


(LaTricia J.) #12

When I humbled myself before Christ and accepted Him as my Lord and Savior at the appointed time, as a part of His lordship, I received the HS just as all other believers who’ve submitted to the lordship of Christ. I don’t believe there is a separate ‘baptism’ that requires speaking in tongues and such as we understand it to be today. When we receive the HS, He comes with the gifts that God has for us. It may not be apparent at the times, but they are there. There are many gifts that He can bestow and what we receive is according to God’s will and not our own. All of the gifts that He gives are valuable and for His purpose and glory.

As @Lakshmismehta spoke of, the filling and experiencing the HS is something that happens throughout the rest of the life of the believer. This has been my experience. And this experience has been enhanced or deepened in my striving to build my relationship with the HS. I have had to take the time to get to know the second person of the Trinity in order for this to happen. The most helpful resource in this endeavor has been a teaching series by Sinclair Ferguson offered through Ligonier Ministries. I ordered the DVD set and companion study book and no matter how many times I watch the series, I’m always left in awe of the magnitude of the HS and I learn more to help me draw nearer to Him and better relate to Him.

Here are some additional resources on the HS:


(Matt Western) #13

I also cannot see in Scripture that there is a difference between salvation (and the immediate indwelling of the Holy Spirit) and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I can’t find supporting Scripture for two different events…? My perspective is that the miraculous sign gifts of tongues, visions, healing, raising the dead, and prophesying were proof that the church was of God, but have since ceased now that Scripture is complete. If these signs were continuing throughout the church age, how can the 1900 year gap between the early church, and the resuming of sign gifts around 1901 be explained?


This is one area I’m interested in from an academic perspective.

The second area I’m interested in from a personal perspective of concern from a unity point of view - new prophetic revelation in the sign gifts of prophesy.

The reason I ask this, is because a person I know, who was in leadership in a Pentecostal church and has been for quite a number of years, had been visited by a ‘prophetess’ who came to the church in an offical capacity (I am unsure of where this person came from) and who prophesied in the church and told this individual I know that they have sin in their life, and they have to step down from ministry. The individual responded that well yes of course I have sin in my life, we all do, but respected this prophetess and stepped down from ministry. This prophetess, who claimed to have new revelation direct from God, caused disruption and confusion in the church leadership. I do quietly wonder what ‘spirit’ this prophetess was operating with - certain not one of unity from my perspective.

Perhaps the above is not typical in a Pentecostal church, and not scriptural? I’ve heard many others state that when they have a ‘prophecy’ from God, it’s a way of saying basically how I would describe as a conservative sharing something new I learnt which I thought was worth sharing: I was reading the Bible, and this verse spoke to me and I wanted to share how it helped me. Obviously the verse didn’t ‘speak’ to me audibly (as that would be just weird), but rather the still small voice inner voice of the Holy Spirit helped the Bible to ‘come alive’ and help me grow more in Christ. Perhaps it’s just different terminology for the same thing?

Also, a verse of interest to me in regards to prophets is Hebrews 1:1-2, because during the Old Covenant with Israel, God uses prophets, but during the New Testament, God has spoken to us by his Son: Jesus Christ. I can’t see how there are still ‘prophetesses’ as above that are part of the church age??

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world

The structure of the church is pretty clearly described with 2 main offices: Pastor and Deacon/Elder and their required qualifications. There are no priests, prophets or prophetesses as we now have direct access to God through Jesus, our great High Priest and Mediator between God and Man (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15).

Also, from my perspective and in relation to the original topic question, the Holy Spirit speaks in a still small voice, in the age of grace, and it is possible to quench (temporarily surpress) or grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), and thus walk in the flesh not in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-26) : the term ‘walk’ meaning way of life, and also the word ‘conversation’ also means way of life in many passages. The Holy Spirit is a seal, or earnest in the life of all Christians, thus assuring of salvation and eternal life, but it still is possible to quench the Holy Spirit.


I believe Scripture to be complete, and there are no new prophecies that claim to be new revelation from God that are valid, and heed the warning in Revelation 22:18-20 about adding to, or taking away from Scripture. For example the Book of Mormon claims to be a new revealed word of God, and has been added to Scripture, even though Mormons still read the King James Version.

Sorry for the long post, but it’s an area of interest for me, and certainly an area in which I have grown up in one denomination as an area of further learning needed as well…


(LaTricia J.) #16

Thank you @MontyD for following up. When I first came to Christ there were three ministries that greatly impacted my understanding of biblical Christianity - RZIM, Ligonier Ministries, and Pastor Lon Solomon from McLean Bible Church (a local church ministry to me). I agree wholeheartedly that how the OP is answered is based on one’s understanding of Christian theology, it really changes things.

As a non-believer, I had heard of these terms and experiences, so when I came to Christ, I think I still had some belief that this is how it would be for me as well. I had a great deal of misconceptions about the HS and how He operates. As someone who came from mysticism, I was relieved to find that it didn’t turn out to be like what I had known in my previous life. :slight_smile:


(anon65845839) #17

Rom. 8:9b- Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.


(Lakshmi Mehta) #18

@matthew.western , @LaTricia_January , appreciate you sharing your insights. I do not mind the long posts at all as this is a controversial issue and the best way to approach is to take time to understand the different views. I can see from your posts the passion you have for the Lord and your desire to be true to the Word and our Lord Jesus Christ even though we differ in our understanding about this issue. I am not a scholar and I was not raised in a church but in a Hindu family. The practice of my Christian faith for a very long time has been limited to church and the Bible. It is only very recently that I have begun to scratch the surface of the academic side of the Christian faith. I first became a Christian through a small bible study group that believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and in the US, my exposure to churches includes – Charismatic, Baptist, PCA and Berean. I will try my best in presenting some of the arguments and resources that I find convincing in favor of filling of the Holy Spirit which can empower a believer’s witness for Christ. When I talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, please know that I am not referring to what you see on charismatic tv channels as I don’t know what they exactly believe. I do not believe in the prosperity gospel, the positive confession movement, the excessive interest in blaming demons for everything, the name it and claim it practice, the barking/roaring/gold dust etc. Looks like my post is going to be very long as well :blush:.

1. Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit different from regeneration?
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized you with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

This verse shows there are two baptisms – water and the holy spirit. The water baptism represents regeneration without which repentance for ours sins is not possible. The holy spirit baptism that Jesus spoke of came to pass in Acts 2:3-4. That the Holy Spirit baptism is a definite experience different from regeneration is also evident from the question that Paul asks the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19:2 Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? As Paul knows the importance that belief is accompanied by sealing by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), he was obviously referring to a second filling of the Holy Spirit that is not vague but perceivable. Further in v.3 Paul asks, “Into what then were you baptized?” This question again suggests Paul believed in baptism of Holy Spirit in addition to water baptism. Another supporting verse is the one about elemental teachings in Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving behind the elementary teachings about the Messiah, let us continue to be carried along to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead actions, faith toward God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. The plural word for baptism in this verse also suggests the early church taught two baptisms. Also, Titus 3:4-6 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior. While many interpret this to be one event, it could also mean two events – the regeneration by the Holy Spirit and the renewal that happened by Holy Spirit being poured out.

John Piper explains how the work of the Holy Spirit is different at regeneration and baptism here

This regenerating work of God’s Spirit is not the limit of what Peter means by baptism in the Spirit. In Acts 11:15–17 Peter reports how the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius just as on the disciples at Pentecost.
“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized in water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us, when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I should withstand God?”

Notice that the gift of the Spirit, or baptism in the Spirit, is preceded by faith. The NASB correctly says in verse 17 that God gave the Holy Spirit after they believed. So the baptism of the Spirit (verse 16) or the receiving of the gift of the Spirit (verse 17) cannot be the same as the work of God before faith which enables faith (which Luke speaks of in Acts 2:39; 5:31; 16:14; 11:18; 15:10; 14:27). The baptism in the Spirit is an experience of the Spirit given after faith to faith.

There are also other examples of receiving holy spirit baptism after water baptism/or faith in Jesus in my previous post on this thread from the book of Acts – such as that of Samarians, Ephesians Apollos who was from Corinth and Gentiles. I am not convinced of the argument from 1 Cor 12:12-13 that ‘baptism of all’ refers to ‘holy spirit sealing of all’ because that verse is in the context of spiritual gifts. It was normative back then to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit with miracles after repentance (Gal 3:5). I also want to emphasize that baptism of the Holy Spirit which comes with some perceivable experience is not necessary for salvation. This perceivable experience is not limited to tongues. Those filled with the Holy Spirit are not any holier as you can learn from the accounts in 1 Corinthians who had division due to selfish motives. The process of dying to self and carrying the cross is same for the one baptized or not, and no one can claim superiority as the second filling of the Holy Spirit is a gift of grace through faith in Jesus.

2) Has the baptism of the Holy Spirit ceased and why is it not seen in church history?
We know from history of the Reformation that we cannot always depend on what happened in church history as proof of whether a doctrine is true or not. Here’s an explanation I have heard from a pastor friend, “Unfortunately as the church apostatized over the centuries, many truths were generally lost - not only those of the spiritual gifts, but also of adult baptism, salvation by grace through faith, the primacy of the Bible, Jesus as only mediator, etc. To re-discover the historical records of believers throughout history who embraced these truths even when the ‘church’ as a whole rejected them is certainly a challenge, not only because these groups often didn’t keep records, but whatever records that remain about them were often distorted by their enemies”. One book that may be helpful to look into is:

For me one big reason from the Bible to be open to the baptism of the Holy Spirit is, 1 Cor 13:8
I do not believe the ‘perfect’ in this verse refers to canonization of the Bible as when ‘the perfect’ comes we will know fully and we will see God face to face.

Also, the promise is for all the Lord will call as seen in Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself”.

3)Approach to New Testament prophecies:
It is indeed sad that there are many false prophets in our midst, but that is promised in the Bible too! But that does not make every prophecy false. Here are some scriptures regarding that:
1Thess 5:20-21 Do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery (in some translations - council of elders).

The church office had elders who practiced prophecy, but their revelations were not added to the Bible.

Here’s an article of interest by Sam Storms: Why NT Prophecy does NOT result in “Scripture-quality” revelatory words (a response to the most frequently cited cessationist argument against the contemporary validity of spiritual gifts)

4) Powerful testimonies of how the Holy Spirit baptism produced conviction of sin and revival.
Here’s a testimony of Pandita Ramabai who was born in 1853, well versed with high caste hindu scriptures, very familiar with affliction who suffered the loss of her mother, father, sister and husband and daughter, and yet pursued women’s liberty in India in the 1800’s and nationally recognized for her efforts. She later became a Christian and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When 70 women prayed for 6 months for baptism of Holy Spirit, it caused another 400 women to join for the prayer, which ultimately produced revival and led thousands to Christ. This was definitely not a fake emotional experience and seldom do we find people seeking after the baptism of the Holy Spirit with such earnestness. Her testimony led me to the works DL Moody and RA Torrey who also have written and preached about Holy Spirit baptism.

In “Why God used DL Moody – RA Torrey” we learn how Moody understood and preached the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Here’s an excerpt of his experience:

The seventh thing that was the secret of why God used D. L. Moody was that, he had a very definite enduement with power from on High, a very clear and definite baptism with the Holy Ghost. Mr. Moody knew he had “the baptism with the Holy Ghost,” he had no doubt about it. In his early days he was a great hustler, he had a tremendous desire to do something, but he had no real power. He worked very largely in the energy of the flesh. But there were two humble Free Methodist women who used to come over [51] to his meetings in the Y. M. C. A. One was “Auntie Cook” and the other, Mrs. Snow. (I think her name was not Snow at that time.) These two women would come to Mr. Moody at the close of his meetings and say: “We are praying for you.” Finally, Mr. Moody became somewhat nettled and said to them one night: “Why are you praying for me? Why don’t you pray for the unsaved?” They replied: “We are praying that you may get the power.” Mr. Moody did not know what that meant, but he got to thinking about it, and then went to these women and said: “I wish you would tell me what you mean,” and they told him about the definite baptism with the Holy Ghost. Then he asked that he might pray with them and not they merely pray for him.
Auntie Cook once told me of the intense fervor with which Mr. Moody prayed on that occasion. She told me in words that I scarcely dare repeat, though I have never forgotten them. And he not only prayed with them, but he also prayed alone. Not long after, one day on his way to England, he was walking up Wall Street in New York (Mr. Moody very seldom told this and I almost hesitate to tell it) and in the midst of the bustle and hurry of that city his prayer was answered; the power of God fell upon him as he walked up the street and he had to hurry off to the house of a friend and ask that he might have a room by himself, and in that room he stayed alone for hours; and the Holy Ghost came upon him filling his soul with such joy that at last he had to ask God to withhold His hand, lest he die on the spot from very joy. He went out from that place with the power of the Holy Ghost upon him, and when he got to London (partly through the prayers of a bedridden saint in Mr. Lessey’s church), the power of God wrought through him mightily in North London, and hundreds were added to the churches, and that was what led to his being invited over to the wonderful campaign that followed in later years.
Time and again Mr. Moody would come to me and say: “Torrey, I want you to preach on the baptism with the Holy Ghost.” I do not know how many times he asked me to speak on that subject.

RA Torrey’s book – The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit

This book gives very good explanation for the foundations for genuine baptism of Holy Spirit that allows for increased efficiency of ministry as we walk in obedience.

Another book which I haven’t read but may have many useful references is Authentic Fire by Michael Brown. I may not agree everyone and everything he stands for but is something to look into.

This is already a lot for one post even though I was trying only to address the main questions. I think there is plenty of good reason to consider the baptism of the Holy Spirit and hopefully this post gives a balance to the opposite view in studying this issue. I have no interest in winning any argument but just providing reason for my belief. I hope others who beleive in the baptism of the Holy Spirit can join in and share good resources that they have come across. There are several more great men and women of God, like Martin Lloyd Jones, Corrie Ten Boom, Oswald Chambers, and many others who believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This is what Corrie Ten Boom had to say about necessity of the baptism of the Holy Spirit:

“We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.”


(LaTricia J.) #19

@Lakshmismehta thank you for all you poured into your post. I think the matter lies in what people mean when they use the term “baptism of the HS”. There usually isn’t common ground among denominations when the term is used. It’s not a term that I use outside of discussions like this. It makes communication extremely hard when the meaning of the terms aren’t understood or agreed upon. I appreciate @KMac asking for clarity early on so the OP could clearly explain how the term was/is being used and understood. I think you and I are fundamentally saying the same thing, however, I don’t think that we are saying the same thing as the OP, if that makes sense (I hope it does).


(Lakshmi Mehta) #20

@LaTricia_January, you are absolutely right! Its that understanding of the word “baptism” that has increased the confusion. The word ‘filled’ may be a better alternative. In scripture we see many other terms to mean the same thing- receive, fall upon, come upon, gift, promise, endued etc. Thanks for bringing that up! :slightly_smiling_face:


(Tony Hacker ) #21

Here’s a teaching I find biblical.

My question is where in scripture do we see an expiration date on the gifts of God? Many that say “they were for establishing that the start of the church and that it was from God” also must add that in scripture somewhere because i do not find that.
I did not grow up in a christian home but very much like a heathen in many aspects. So I still look at Scripture without the adding too or taking away from as it warns not to do in the book of revelation (though i believe that’s just referring to the book of revelation- another topic).

So again question

  1. Where does it specifically say the gifts were ONLY for the very first church? And if so, what was the expiring factor? The first pastor died? The first generation died?

  2. Where in Scripture do we see EXPLICITLY that the gifts have ceased? Im in agreement with my sister Lakshmi on the verses she shared on the contrary.

Again, just because sometimes something’s done weird or false is not a BIBLICAL (not yelling just emphasizing) reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I’ve actually experienced true prophecy that only could have been God.
So I have the 1. testimony of a minister in the Lord 2. Testimony of Scripture 3. Testimony of my own personal experience
4. The Spirit Himself bears witness

Yet even with and by Scripture alone I’d fight for the gifts because it’s God’s word.

Here’s another helpful article I’ve found


(Matt Western) #22

Thankyou for such an in depth post. I will certainly go and read all the Scripture and information in the next few weeks. It’s very interesting learning about a different denomination that what I have been brought up with, and I want to understand more.
Thankyou.