“Bible is man made book so it’s false”

My friend ask me this and I don’t how to answer. He believe that there is Creator, God but he doesn’t believe that Bible is true instead he think that it’s man made so bible must be false. I’ve tried to explain but it seem my explanation doesn’t help. This is what my friend asked me and he said if it answered I will believe that Bible is true.

“I had this thought in a bible class when bible Teacher was teaching: “this whole story of Adam to Jesus, and Jesus crucifixion to save humanity, looked to me as a movie, of a novel.” And as I grew older, discovering about the infinite universe and infinite possibilities, and the creation of God, I questioned even harder, "why would the all-mighty God continue the human race when he himself knew what would happen, it’s like he’s enjoying a movie which he knows the ending of. And the final war Armeggaedon where the army of God and the devils fight, sounded truly like the final climax of a long series. "

“The idea of holy spirits and angels just didn’t sound right to me. The God, who is everything and can do anything, creates holy beings. Why?””

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Hi @maripgyunglum, so glad you asked this question. It is definitely a hard one especially when we grow up watching Hollywood movies with the ying-yang of story telling and we assume that God must be like that too.

First of all, God wants everyone saved. Every single person/soul, but he created a world where there is a freewill. A free choice to accept or reject God. If we don’t have a free choice, we are robots and we cant love. Love cant exist where there is no freedom. God does not want robots and loves us too that he wants us to choose for our own. So by default, there will be people who will reject God and separate themselves from him for eternity. So it is not God’s doing. We all have a free choice to accept a free gift of redemption even when we sinned against and continue to destroy the world causing soooo much suffering.

Second, God’s foreknowledge - ability to know what will happen in the future does not mean he is making people choose certain things. If I know you well enough and know that you’ll pick a coffee over tea, I am not making you choose to drink coffee. But there are few theories such as Molinism that I think helps me wrap God’s sovereignty and foreknowledge. He created this universe knowing that this is the only universe out millions of combinations of possible universe that would have the maximum number of souls that will be saved by their own free will.

So it is not about climax and movies, it is about the freedom of free choice we all value so much and God is giving us just that despite his almightiness. What will we choose is the great mystery - if we rely on our “smarts” almost everytime we will choose the worldly temporary things and totally miss the mark. That is what the bible shows us. Man’s downfall when they rely on their own smarts.

In terms of the bible, that’s a different subject and it needs unpacking. What is your friend opposed of the bible exactly. We are Christ followers and the bible, the inspired word of God is written by men. We are not contesting that but does written by men mean that it is wrong or incorrect? Encourage your friend to give it a shot without dismissing it blankly based on preconceived notions. He can dig in more in history and it’s authenticity and the preservation of the bible and all to help.

I hope this helps. I pray that the Holy Spirit guides you and your friend in the quest for The Truth.
God Bless.

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This is an interesting question, I believe that God has given us many gifts, but then we have the gift of free-will, I believe this is where the reason for the turmoil begins. Analogies always fall short, but sometimes they can help; what God is doing could be analogous to having millions of ants manage a castle, in our eyes impossible, but the success will only bring glory and honour to God, and that through the means by which He’s doing it, the Truth, even the Truth in the flesh, the Lord Jesus. The vastness of the gift He has given us (eternal life) requires the letting go of that which wars against it (the flesh). Matthew 13:23-30 can bring a lot of understanding in the grace of the Lord, I strongly recommend it. Reality is taking place, as blurry or real as things may appear in this life, such reality still remains, and the one that remains is the one who beholds it, the one that has been given the gift, day after day, God’s master plan confounds the proud and it’s attainable by the weak, because the root of it all is love and God is Love, the means by which we get there is the Truth, that’s the only door; in the end everyone will know for sure, pain, unrest and torment will become certainty markers, just like we have smaller “pain” markers in this reality, yet for those who believe without seeing, joy and the abundant life are theirs, even in smaller portions as they experience in this life. Perhaps people should ask themselves: In the case of worst case scenario, what do I have to loose? Of course that would mean nothing if one blocks the possibility of having a soul and a hell that could torment it forever.

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Thanks!

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Thank you!

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I’m trying my best to explain it to him now but I’m let you know,
This is what my friend replied:
I would like to start off by saying that I don’t and never believe God to be pictured or imagined. God is an entity that will forever be a mistreat. He is a divine being, existing everywhere and anytime. We can never know what he looks like.

Now, for your first point. “God wants everyone saved”, “He created a world with free will” are merely your point of view of the bible or how you interpret the bible, or from others’ sermons – which again, derived from the bible – . You also mentioned what God loves and loathes, which again, is referenced from the bible. In a sense, we can not and will never know what God loves and loathes. I mean, he’s literally a “God”. Now, I’m not saying I reject God, I truly believe there is a creator capable of creating everything. Hell, even if there were multiple “Gods”, I would still believe there is even a greater God who created those “Gods”, and I choose to believe the almighty God.

Second, I’m not saying God is making people do his wills. I’m just saying that he knows the past, the future, and everything else. Also, with limited science knowledge, we can know that there are infinite universe with infinite possibilities. So, what you are saying or assuming – not even assuming, you are directly saying that he knows – in your second paragraph last sentence, is that this universe is the only universe with the maximum number of souls that will he saved by their own free will? Forgive me if I’m wrong but aren’t you implying that God chose this universe because he knows that this universe will have maximum number of souls saved?

Thirdly, I was just saying “life” resembles a movie or series, of course it is a freedom of choice. I’m pretty sure everyone including me, other than Atheists believes God is real, so we relying on our own knowledge with the knowledge that God is real, we are not disregarding God’s existence. So we are not really relying on our ‘smarts’, we are relying on our ‘smarts’ while we know the existence of God. But of course, if you follow from Bible, we have to accept Jesus (who is also a God) in order to be saved.

If you said all of the above statements without “in terms of bible”, then my fourth paragraph concludes itself (we are not really relying on our own “smarts” if we know of the existence of God). What I oppose of bible is still a subject that I am still working on, because I am only in ‘Exodus’ book, so I will be questioning alot as I read on. I don’t really dismiss bible, I fact check them, if what I read is true, I accept it. And of course, you have to fact check them, because if you don’t research or check whether it’s true, you’re just another brainwashed follower who believes (and call it Faith) everything blindly.

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@maripgyunglum, your friend posed some interesting questions. I like @Danageze’s and @jboat’s responses. I would like to offer a few questions that you can ask your friend that would help to clarify his thinking:

  • What is it about the Bible that makes it look like a movie or novel to you?
  • What do you think is the Bible’s message?
  • What message would you communicate if you were God?
  • What would you do about the human race if you were God? Why or why not?

These may lead to some constructive dialog with your friend. I am interested in any updates! God bless!

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Hello @maripgyunglum

You have received a couple of good answers so far but as I read your opening paragraph.

There is an assertion that if man has made the Bible it must be false. This seems to be where the whole foundation for mistrusting the Bible comes from. I would agree that the Bible is written by men (human beings inspired by God, who wrote what was God inspired them to write). But just because it was written by men; does that mean that it is faulty. When men build buildings, airplanes, space ships are they all faulty. Do they all have errors that will cause them to crash or fall down on their own? I think not. Man has a long history of doing things that are good, honest and true. When man records event in history, are they all faulty and not trustworthy just because a man recorded them. The things that you do every day…are they all faulty?

We must check out what is written to see if it true, as you seem to be doing to make sure that what is recorded is true. I am reminded of an archeologist by the name of Sir William Ramsay who started out to disprove Christianity through archeology. As he started to look for evidence in the dirt for the places and people that the Bible describes he was taken aback by the verification of the things that he found in the dirt. So much so that he started out to disprove the Bible but ended up giving his life to Jesus because of the verification of events, times and people that all matched what the scriptures told. People that conduct archeology in the middle east use the Bible as their first record of evidence to find the physical location of places and event in history.

The next thought that I have about the opening paragraph is that you believe in a creator. I am assuming that this means that there is a belief in a creator that has created everything that we see from nothing.
May I also add that people are able to train and teach dogs to do what they want them to do.
So my question is; that if the creator can create something from nothing and people can train dogs to do what they want them to do; why cannot the creator inspire people to do exactly what He wants them to do for him…like write and record an accurate record of history or His thoughts that he wants people to know?
If God is truly all mighty; why is there limits being put on His abilities?

Maybe you can help me with your understanding of the kind of God that you believe in by answering some of these questions. Thanks for your time in reflection. :thinking:

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Hi @maripgyunglum. So glad that you were able to conversate with you friend. I see that he truly is in the search for the truth and I commend him for that. I am a medical doctor myself and definitely had become an atheist as I definitely did not want to be a brainwashed follower of some “holy book” as I called it at the time. So if he is searching for the truth, he will find it as long as he is willing to walk wherever the truth leads.

Now to answer the question he pointed out, I have a follow up comments/questions.

First I want to say, how did he come to that conclusion?

Second, He is correct that God is a divine being and we cant not know him by our abilities - but the key distinction here is - WE will only get to know him if he/she/it will LET us. That is what we call revelation (there are few types of revelation - general and specific). But is there a time in history that God has revealed himself to us? Also I would be cautious here, if your answer is no, just because you dont know or dont think so, it does not mean he has not or can not have revealed himself. Afterall He is God and can do anything.

A reply to that could be, “If he had done so why have we not seen it then - show me God.”

One reply to that is that Abraham Lincoln existed in history right. You and I have not seen him. Does that mean he never existed? Another thing you’ll also see as you read the bible is that God does not want us to worship him because we are afraid or wow’ed by him. He is not like human beings where he is like here I will show you, bow down to me type of God. He wants you to choose him because you trust in him. He is about relationship instead of wowing you and overpowering or scaring you to bow down to him. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t reveal himself to us either. You cant see microbes without a microscope, there is also a way to connect with God via the Holy Spirit.

Also, on a side note, I’m sure you know to never say never right :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes, if you truly look at the definition of how a God should be defined, it is supposed to be the top of the top, one that does not have another being that is better than him, like you said the almighty one. “gods” multiple gods are ideas of the movies.

To my knowledge, there is actually no evidence for this statement. It is theory to explain the fine turning of the universe to see how it can allow life. This is not to hurt your ego, I vs you winning argument but if we are to searchers for the truth and to be fair to everything and not be brainwashed, we also have to ask our “scientist” where they are coming up with their theories and not accept it face value since they are “professor of such and such”. Many manyyy scientist, world renowned will actually tell you that there is no evidence for such a thing. Even if the multi-verse is true, it does not go against God. You still would have to ask who created the multiverse machine, because it has to be even more fine tuned to be able to pop out such complex universes such as ours. Here is a video that may help.

Yes, because he wants everyone saved but he does not want to force people to be saved without their choice. What would the alternative be if he didnt choose to create this universe with the max number of people that will be saved by their own choice, more people rejecting God and actually suffering due to their own choice to separate from the source of all good and life. This actually would tie in with the multiverse thought, if we were to ever get an evidence for it.

So few things that might be helpful here. I once were so weary of the bible and the character of God. I wanted to know that I can trust in him, that he/she/it is reliable and it is not some sham, made up story by man to try to control me. I think that is what you are wrestling with. I am sorry ahead of time that people have in the past and today use/have used the bible to get their own agenda fulfilled. What I encourage you to do is to continue your search and find the Biblical Christ yourself (figure out the exact reasons why you dont trust the bible and let us know). But If you can learn the character of God, you’ll see that you will actually want to to accept him without anyyyyy force at alll. He is saying just come and see. I am grateful you are not dismissing the bible and that you are actually reading it. One thing I would suggest is that you start with the new testament first. Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God (specific revelation of God). This does not mean the OT God is different from Jesus or the triune God but the context is way different in the OT than the new testament (only 2000 ys apart). Just like there is a right way to apply the scientific method, there is a right way to read and investigate the Bible too.

Also, my own comment back in the days was that I would never accept Christ or God because I feared of being sent to hell. I will rather go to hell forced than to accept him/her if I didnt think he/she was worth being worshiped or relied on. I thought either people used the bible to get their wills done or that the god of the bible was wrathful while Jesus was overall good. What I found was actually quite the opposite - it is a God who died for me even when I cursed him and killed him. And context is very key when reading the bible. Language/writing carries intending meaning by the original author, so understanding the context will help you draw correct conclusions. Dont trust my word for it. As you have started and has been doing, continue to seek and search. Definitely ask as many questions as you want, but keep an open mind. Some scientist, they take out the supernatural as a possible place for answers and only focus on the natural. They are skewing their research when they do that. Science needs to be interpreted by the scientist and it can never tell you the why’s of life but only the how’s.

But definitely, let us know what are your specific objection are when it comes to the bible as @blbossard asked as well.

God Bless.

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Matthew 8:28-29
When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Even the demons know God has set a time for everything. God will only proves himself a liar if his prophetic words don’t come true as written in the Bible. God is continuing the human race not for his own pleasure but because of his love for mankind.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The Bible is supported by historical and archeological evidences . The Old Testament is essentially the history of the Jews and Israel. I don’t know what kind of people would go to the extent of questioning or mocking the national history of another nation.

We should be counting ourselves as very fortunate that God has angels as his messengers. It was a common knowledge in the Old Testament times that anyone who sees God would die instantly. No one has seen God. They have seen his Shekinah glory. Moses did not see God. He saw the burning bush. God never revealed his real and personal name to anyone. To Moses he called him self “I AM WHO I AM”.

The Bible records God’s dealing with mankind. He spoke to us in ways we can understand. It is far more than an ordinary movie plot. It is an invisible spiritual warfare between the forces of good and evil which will end in the final war at Armageddon.

Christians should be able to discern the motives behind a question and understand when to continue or when to stop.

2 Timothy 2:15 -16
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.

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Hi Maripgyunglum,
You absolutely must watch the below first video of a speech by Voddie Baucham that addresses the main question. The one I am including has been edited for visuals, but you can find several longer versions if you search for “Voddie Baucham Why I choose to believe the bible”. The title of your post is specifically adddressed in this video. I am also including another video that is about a conversation between J.R.R. Tolkein and C.S. Lewis regarding the power of fiction. This is not at all to say that the bible is fiction in any way. Also, look through some videos or read books by the below three people, two of them have the same last name but I don’t think they are related.

Daniel B Wallace - New Testament Scholar
J Warner Wallace - Cold Case Detective
Dr. Gary Habermas - American Historian, New Testament Scholar

Blessings,
Anthony Hodge

The Bible is Historical and True, Amazing! // Voddie Baucham

C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien on the power of Fiction

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Those are great questions and it sounds like your friend is searching (or that God is prompting him to search). I would start on common ground.
What has caused him to believe in a creator? Was it his observation? Like the conclusion that there is a creator, a book can be evaluated and is not false simply because people wrote it. The claims of the Bible put it into a special category of divinely inspired - something that can be evaluated.

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Thank you everyone for helping me!!
This is what my friend having difficult to understand “we are limiting God”.
His reply:
First of all, I am clearly not saying the bible is faulty. I know that the historical evidence states the events in the bible is true and accurate. Also, please keep in mind that Bible’s story main centre figure Abraham only started around 1800 BC. My point is, the bible is not that old to not be historically accurate, meaning it is not that old for us to not be able to match with scientific data. Adam and Eve are of different subject, one research shows they are from 120 000 BC, but we can never be so sure (also, keep in mind that Adam and Eve from the bible are already evolved beings).

The historical events are true. But there are no evidence of God’s miracles and powers being true. You may say that they are true by the stones beside the river Israelites crossed, or other proofs of miracles, but in actuality, those things can be altered pretty easily. Meaning, one from that timeline can write whatever they saw into their own stories.

Using dogs as an example is not appropriate, since we are speaking of God here, dogs are also a being from God’s creation, so you can’t really match God’s wants and what he likes or not to his creations’ wants.why is there limits being put on his abilities? That is exactly what you are contradicting yourself with. As you said, God is truly mighty, yet you still say “why can’t God inspire people to do exactly as he wants them to do for them”, you say these things like you know what God wants. Keep in mind, God is everything, he is almighty. You say “write and record history or his thoughts” like you know exactly that is what God wants. You are the one limiting God.

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Hi @blbossard, thanks for helping me. I did ask him 2 and 3. When I ask him 2 his answer wasn’t correct and after that I think he search it on google because his second answer was correct which is how to live and teachings. (He said that he wasn’t googling but I can hear him typing). And the third one he said can’t think/imagine because God is almighty God and if he does it he is limiting God. I think this is where it started. He said that we are limiting God with bible which is written by us, men.

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Real quick I want to thanks to everyone who is helping me to understand more deeper! @Danageze @jboat @blbossard @don58.baker @SelieVisa @anthonynhodge @GrupoAlumniModuloOptativo

I think what my friend thinks is that we are limiting God and he said he don’t believe in that God, he believe in almighty God and won’t limit Him. For example, I would give him an example but then he respond is almost always “you are limiting God”. And I surprised that he said Jesus’s crucifixion/persecution is nothing compared to other people in history.

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In what way are we limiting God? The bible tells us God created everything and anything that ever existed. He is the giver of life. He is the uncreated, powerful God! He raised people from the dead, he rose from the dead himself. What in the Bible is limiting God?

I’m glad we are helping you @maripgyunglum.
God bless.

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@maripgyunglum, thank you for the update! Your friend’s response fascinates me. I am curious to know what his first answer to my second question was. If you can clarify what “how to live and teachings” means I would also appreciate that. It is on the right track, but my impression from reading the whole Bible multiple times is that this only scratches the surface. Every scripture ever written can be said to be about “how to live and teachings.” Your friend has not read the Bible. He is speaking without knowledge. Maybe you can invite him to read John’s gospel with you and discuss it.

As to his answer to my third question—let’s face it, he avoided answering it. That is just as well because no written history can possibly pass muster based on his criteria. The greatest historian cannot possibly write everything that there is to know about any subject. Does this limitation invalidate the historian’s writing? Does he reject man-made theories about gravity just because they do not fully explain it? Does the fact that we say that the wind caused the leaves to rustle limit the wind to a rustling of leaves?

In fact, you can challenge him. If he rejects any human attempt to comprehend a few facets of an unlimited God, then would he reject any attempt by God to communicate with us? If so, then he is limiting God with his rejection. If not, then how would he know that God is communicating? What would he look for in a communication from God? Would God even communicate? These would be fascinating questions to ask.

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There’s a line between existence and non-existence, life and death, joy and pain; all of which man in his limited intellect perceives as a limitation in various degrees at different times. Man is limited, does that come as a surprise? God became man, so God limited Himself, for our sake! A mathematical engineer limits himself when he explains a mathematical concept to his child; is he doing wrong? If the world we live in is limited by decay, does this prevent God from revealing Himself to us? And if decay is part of our make up too, could it be that we’re the ones that cannot see His already revealed fullness?

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His answer first answer was histories, ancient people and Abraham and etc.

He still and will say this.

Yes, I will be updating with everyone! Please help us! God bless!

Hello again @maripgyunglum
I would like to start off with thanking your friend for being will to discuss and share his thought on this topic. Most people like to hold their own opinions but are willing to discuss them with others to see if they have any merit to them. So good on your friend for being willing to converse.

My response to this comment is… yes we are limiting God. We are limiting God to what he has revealed about himself. When we look at nature we are able to see that there is a God and we can understand that through nature we can see His invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature. Men are without excuse for not recognizing God from what has been created. But after looking at nature we need to have some way of knowing who the person of God is. Without Him revealing Himself and His character we would not be able to know Him personally. We can look at a building that someone has built and say that we recognize that someone has built it but unless we go and have coffee with whoever built it we really don’t know him. Same with the world we live in. God has made the world and now he has revealed Himself by His actions and words in the Bible so that people will know what kind of a person He is. If God does not reveal who he is then people will come up with all sorts of inventive stories about who they personally think God is. The multitude of religious views of who God is verifies this. If you ask the question to people around you “who is God” you will get all sorts of different ideas because people like to make God out to be who they think God is. But because the history, the archeology, can be shown to be true we know the character of God to be what is described. As an example the early part of Genesis describes a place called Babel. Archeologists have been able to locate where that site is, which gives credibility to the story that surrounds it. The valley and plains of Sodom and Gomorrah have also been located with evidence of sulfur still on the landscape. The city of Jericho has been located exactly where the Bible describes and with the fallen walls still revealing God’s judgement on that city. People don’t have to believe what has been written but they should have another answer to why the written history matches what is found in the dirt today. Therefor as we learn to trust what is written we limit our view of God to what He has revealed about Himself.

I would have to disagree with this point…the main figure in the Bible it is not Abraham, it is Jesus. As has been already mentioned I would encourage you to read the Book of John. Verify his story and see if it is historically credible. I think you will be surprised at the evidence for the birth, life, and resurrection of Christ.

That is an interesting statement that is given. It sounds like there is some evidence that can be presented to give credibility to this statement. Maybe this evidence can be shared.

For starters I guess I would remind your friend that we live in a world that was created from nothing…how much power or miracles does it take to make that happen. If God can create water…is it possible for Him to walk on it? I have already given an example of the miracle of the walls of Jericho. I could go into many other archeology verifiable events but we can leave the Old Testament for now. The biggest miracle in the Bible is the resurrection of Jesus. This miracle has been studied and researched to the most minute detail and it comes out to be more believable every time. I think it you would be amazed to check it out for yourself.

I think you have missed my point here. My point is this; if people can get a dogs to roll over on command…why can’t an all powerful God get people to write a sentence that He wants them to write. It would seem to me that I am not the one putting limits on God’s abilities here.

Yes He is, but He is limited by His nature. As an example; can God create a square circle? No, This statement is illogical and God is limited to only logical concepts. That’s part of His nature. Can God lie, again no because His nature is truth.

I am not saying that I know exactly what God wants written, but I am saying that those that wrote down the words of the Bible were inspired to do so. Just like a person can get a dog to roll over, so can God get people to write down what He wants.

I would have to say that this response continues to get weaker to me, because the other side of the response is that he is creating a God in his own image…where is the evidence and proof for the things that he believes about God? As an example, many people could say that I am a 20 year old female…but if you look at my picture (the evidence) you would quickly discover that that is not a good description of me.

Again thanks for continuing to dialog…the search for Christ can be a bumpy road but if your friend is willing to follow the evidence it will be the best part of life for him.
Blessings.

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