God’s position on the LGBTQ movement

Jammy,

My earlier question was whether you had been in the home of a heterosexual couple who live together without the covenant of marriage? Basically are you/we/the church holding heterosexuals to the same standard for holy sexuality as we are homosexual persons? Are we condemning non-biblical lifestyles with as much vehemence?

The sins of the flesh are part of the brokenness of all of us. Have we as a the body of Christ, the Church, soft-pedaled the sins of the flesh within our walls while building walls against those who are “not like us”?

Jesus made a point of hanging with sinners–those who needed healing. Wherever He may have been (gay pride parade, gay wedding, brothel, etc) I think He would have been there for the purpose of being Truth in the midst of sin and calling people to Himself. His conversation with the adulteress woman at the well was especially poignant–He knew the real and true longing of her heart and was the only one who could provide it.

In Abdu Murray’s book Saving Truth, he quotes Jenell Williams Paris, “even humble Christians who make every effort to be kind and gracious toward homosexuals are not really reaching out; they’re reaching down from a place of moral elevation.” He also quotes Michael Hannon, “If homosexuality binds us to sin, heterosexuality blinds us to sin.” Abdu Murray goes on to say “The fact is we are all bent rulers trying to judge others as crooked.”

I think these are important points as we examine our thoughts/behaviors/beliefs concerning the LGBTQ community. From the question earlier in the posts: How do we uphold the Truth of the Gospel and Jesus without compromise while loving others and pointing them to Christ?

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Saving Truth is an awesome read! I could not agree more with you post Jennifer.

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“If homosexuality binds us to sin, heterosexuality blinds us to sin.”

What is the context here? It seems like a very confusing comment to make. How does heterosexuality blind us to sin? No one in the church who isn’t on the progressive side of things (that I’ve heard) has condoned porn use, adultery, sex outside of marriage, etc in a heterosexual context. And in no way has my own heterosexuality blinded me to the fact that those actions are sinful.

It seems to be placing the two in the same plane as far as sin is concerned when one is clearly defined as sin in Gods word and the other is celebrated (see Song of Solomon for example).

Have I missed your point here?

@Pk4short you have already taught me a great deal. Wow! Profound! Thank you! God is certainly evident in your life.
@jdodger26 thank you for getting this particular conversation started. So many hurting people, so much healing necessary. We are all broken.
@Jennifer_Judson "The sins of the flesh are part of the brokenness of all of us. Have we as a the body of Christ, the Church, soft-pedaled the sins of the flesh within our walls while building walls against those who are “not like us”? I would have to say yes. Many of us, including myself have been so blind to this and have left so many wounded people behind. Thank you for your insight. I am learning so much here. And:
“If homosexuality binds us to sin, heterosexuality blinds us to sin.” Abdu Murray goes on to say “The fact is we are all bent rulers trying to judge others as crooked.”
Wow! So true.

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Bless you heart for the love that you are giving and showing them. I am lifting you up in prayer now :pray:

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Thanks, Sieglinde. Abdu Murray’s book has a wonderful and enlightening chapter titled: Clarity about Sexuality, Gender, and Identity.

I have been very conflicted about many Christian’s responses to homosexual persons. (I am not conflicted about God’s word and homosexuality, I believe it to be right and true). I’ve seen sexual sin between male/female couples quietly ignored while homosexual persons were condemned and vilified.

The older I get the more I’m trying to find real, genuine, Godly compassion within myself for all of God’s children. Not compassion that denies any truth of the gospel, but compassion that shows God’s grace and call on the lives of every soul he has created. It’s not that I’ve lead a life un-compassionately, but I’d say more apathetically, not really caring about the hearts of strangers. Family and friends, yes. But the rest of the population I’ve been woefully disengaged.

A dear friend and co-worker is an LGBTQ activist. Blessedly she is also one of the most grounded individuals I’ve ever known. (I don’t mean grounded in the Gospel, she’s Thai and raised Buddhist–but grounded in herself and a desire to know and understand all people). She welcomes my questions and has helped me understand how much violence and damage there has been, especially against transgender persons. Many of whom are already filled with self-loathing and confusion.

I’m still trying to grapple with new knowledge, feelings, etc. and how to approach this new knowledge from a gospel-believing, Christ-following perspective. I found “Saving Truth” to be insightful and helpful.

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“If homosexuality binds us to sin, heterosexuality blinds us to sin.” – Michael Hannon

Hi, @jdodger26!
That excerpt (which @Jennifer_Judson noted that Abdu Murray quoted) is from this article, which examines the language and concept of ‘sexual orientation’. It’s a fascinating read!

Here is the quote in its immediate context:

The most pernicious aspect of the orientation-identity system is that it tends to exempt heterosexuals from moral evaluation. If homosexuality binds us to sin, heterosexuality blinds us to sin. There is no question that some morally self-aware “heterosexuals” exist. Nevertheless, as a general rule, identifying as a heterosexual person today amounts to declaring oneself a member of the “normal group,” against which all deviant sexual desires and attractions and temptations are to be measured. Such hetero-identification thus ushers in a pathetically uncritical and—hopefully it goes without saying—unmerited self-assurance, not to mention an inaccurate measure for evaluating temptation. Of course, we do have a model norm for the evaluation of sexual deviancy. But that model is not heterosexuality. It is Christ Jesus himself…

I think a simple way of rephrasing it would be: sexuality, regardless of the object of erotic desire, can blind us to our sin…and not just sexual sin; any sin.

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Thanks for the context Kathleen. I’ll give this a closer read. I agree, our desires (sexual and non-sexual) can for sure blind us to our sin because it is so satisfying to have those desires fulfilled. A heterosexual man or woman engaging in heterosexual relations outside of marriage is a sin. That is clear from scripture. As is the same person looking at heterosexual pornography for example (Matthew 5:28). This is equally as sinful as a gay person doing the same thing with their own desires.
What I take issue with in that quote is that it puts heterosexually in the same plane as homosexuality. If heterosexuality blinds us to sin I do wonder why there is an entire book about a couple’s heterosexuality in the Word (Song of Solomon). We as humans need standards to follow for acceptable behavior, right? That’s why the Law was given. What is normal, God-affirming sexual behavior if it is not heterosexual relations within a committed marital relationship? God made this relationship to be a picture of Christ and the Church so I believe the heterosexual marriage is indeed the model of Christ himself.
Here’s a mind bending question: He was of course celibate but did Christ have a sexuality? If so was he heterosexual? If so, then wouldn’t this affirm that this is the standard for sexuality (Christ himself)?

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Thank You.

God bless you on your journey :blush:

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I would agree and if I would change the context into “If violence binds us to sin, anger blinds us to sin”. It is a comparison on which sin is higher degree but both are sin.

However if the context were “If homosexual marriage binds us to sin, heterosexual marriage blinds us to sin”. This is a clear wrong statement. And basically nobody would agree.

So why does sexuality and marriage gave it a different meaning? Marriages are the very essence of man and women to be united as one. Sexuality in a straight answer is lust.

So the quote is just a means to justify if you see wrong in this way, then how about your way. Basically a comparison verse would be Matthew 7:3-5.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

The author clearly knows what is sin.

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Oh my word, I’m just now seeing that it actually says ‘If homosexuality binds us…’ (not blinds us!) :woman_facepalming: So my paraphrase above is slightly off!

So, again, the author (Michael Hannon) is making a case against using this language that ties our human identity to a sexual orientation. So, yes, he’s putting the word ‘homosexuality’ and ‘heterosexuality’ on the same plane because he finds them equally unhelpful. He’s not critiquing Biblical sexual ethics; he’s advocating against unhelpful, socially-constructed categories. As he says,

I want to suggest that we should do our best to encourage the dissolution of orientation within our own subcultural spheres wherever possible.

I think he means the notion of being ‘a heterosexual’ is what blinds one to sin. It’s the identity of (and pride taken in) being ‘normal’. With that in mind, I would contend that Song of Songs is a celebration of eros between a man and a woman rather than a book about heterosexuality.

This is mind-bending! Ha! My thoughts would be that sexuality (full stop) is a part of our human nature. So if we are sexual beings, then Jesus was a sexual being! Now, I have no idea what kind of physical experience it was for Jesus to negotiate sexual temptation, but we do acknowledge that we have [a high priest] who has been tempted in every way, just as we are – yet he did not sin. (Hebrews 4:15) Therefore, as such, I know that Jesus knows what it means to contend with the human sexual nature…even if I have no idea what it looked like for him to do so! So, it’s on this note that I disagree with you, @Kenny_Chen, when you write…

The two are not the same. Lust, though, can have its origins in our sexual nature, but to be sexual is not a sin. It’s an ontological reality.

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Before Marriage
Sexual (adjective) > Sexuality (noun) > Sex (verb)
Man/Woman> Lust> Sin

After Marriage
Sexual (adjective) > Sexuality (noun) > Sex (verb)
Man/Woman> Love> Procreation

I was assuming the author has no intention to meant “After Marriage”.

I might be wrong :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:, do feel free to comment.

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I would certainly point out that the eros displayed in Song of Solomon is in the form of heterosexual sexuality. Eros is romantic, erotic love. The couple are man and woman. So therefore the standard for sexuality the book displays is heterosexual in nature. I would also point out that the book also displays storge, philia, and agape love as well. As Ravi has said, only in the Christian marriage are these 4 on display.
Thanks for the responses :slight_smile:

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Jennifer, I must admit that when I read “The War of Loves” I did/do think of what the author has had to give up to follow Jesus. And I still believe that he gave up a lot more than I have thus far. I like to think that I know and live the Gospel, but now you have me thinking. Is there any chance that you could expand on that part please?
Thanks
Bill

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Be happy to try @billbrander.

That point was from Sam Allberry. He has a lot of videos on youtube that are well worth watching. My notes from that lecture in the What It Means to be Human RZIM Course are at home, but Sam was talking to his own experience of people suggesting he has more to give up as a same-sex attracted person coming to Jesus.

His point was that when we take up our cross and follow Jesus there will always be things we have to leave behind in our old life. For him that meant the path before him was a celibate life. He understood he was not his sexuality, that it did not define who he was. It was not his identity. We are all image-bearers of our Creator, but because of the fall we are broken from that image. Through Christ we become reconnected to that image and our lives begin to be conformed to Christ-likeness. By following Christ, Sam was not leaving an identity behind, but fulfilling his true identity. That will be the same for all of us, homosexual or heterosexual.

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That is so well put, Pam. Thank you for sharing. Your voice can be so powerfully used in this conversation. I hope you’re given many more opportunities to share your story and the way God’s love has been shown through your life.

I’d love to ask your opinion on something. I have often felt that while homosexuality is not a “worse” sin than any other sexual sin, I feel that it can be much harder to overcome because it seems many people take on homosexuality as an identity and take pride in it, while I don’t see often see people making their struggle with pornography their identity or showing pride in it. Do you think that is accurate? If so, do you think we have to address homosexuality differently than other sexual sins since many people do take it on as their identity?

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Thank you Jennifer. Clearer now.
Stay blessed
Bill

It depends on the culture. In US LGBT are treated like a protective existence, in Japan pornstars are sexy actresses and gained public approval/fame, in middle East both will be treated as criminal offence (on normal grounds) but still debatable.

If the world cultural sense is used that’s where the conclusion will end up. If biblical sense is used, the answer is very obvious.

Hi Brandon, “Gay Pride” has been around for at least 40 years. It is just more visible now. I think the correct term would be “unashamed” instead of pride. The reason I say this is because while living in “the lifestyle” in a time before society embraced homosexuality, LGBT were forced to hide their sexuality from family, friends, employers, the church.etc… In other words I lived a lie and pretended to be someone I was not. Substituting he for she when someone would ask me about a significant other is just one example of such a lie.
With the inability to express oneself out of fear of judgement, bodily harm, and the real possibility of death we hid In “self imposed shame.” Living in such a lie is exhausting, hence the offensive behavior many display during the “Gay Pride” events. It is not “Pride” it is more of a declaration, “I refuse to live in shame.”
We are taught from a very early age; “we are what we eat,” “birds of a feather flock together,” bad manners are a reflection of our parents.etc… We are of the mindset that our identity is determined by what we do, how we worship, who our friends are, what kind of car we drive etc…The real issue is that our “identity” is built on metaphors, how we and others view us instead of our true identity as Imago Dei. Regardless of how we identify ourselves, we all must overcome the worldly view of our identity and rebuild our lives on our true identity.
When we say, “I am” this or that we are actually recognizing the great I AM comes before anything we can say about ourselves.
As for addressing homosexuality. I can only speak for myself. Homosexuality was not a life I wanted for myself and crossing that bridge was like walking through a mine field. It was not easy and it was not something I felt or believed was a choice. Once I stepped into the life, I believed there was no going back. When anyone would start to question or criticize my life decisions, I automatically tuned out. It was only when a sister in Christ listened and responded with the wisdom and heart of Christ instead of the mind, heart and ears of the flesh was I able to hear her words. She did not tell me I was going to hell and that I was a sinner, that I was sick, or try to shame me into being straight. She let me know she heard what I had to say, had compassion for my struggle, asked me compassionate questions, shared not her personal beliefs but God’s word and why she had faith in God. She shared the Gospel and let me know exactly how precious I am to God. She did not try to shame me from homosexuality into heterosexuality. She planted a seed, I went from lost to saved and it was only God who was able to change my thinking, heal my heart and revel to me my true identity.
Blessings, Pam

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That’s a good point, Kenny. Thanks for pointing that out - it’s often hard to remember living in America that the culture significantly impacts this conversation.

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