Recently I watched a Veritas Forum interview with Tim Keller (on the link below) discussing about homosexual sin. At one point when he discusses sin he defines it as something that prevents human flourishing, and that it’s bad not only for the individual but also for others around them . Now I understand that the spiritual consequences of this is Hell, but what about the earthly consequences? Because it seems to me that issues like transgression and sexual immorality have such earthly consequences, which are also considered sin in the bible, but whenever I search up homosexual relationships, there seems to be continued support from the media (things that I have to be (and am) skeptical of) tend to say how it is a sign for progress. Of course, this is a very diverse situation, so I’m up for any more discussion, but I want to state that I don’t see homosexuality as the sin, rather that it is one sin out of many, each one equally seen as bad by God, and that I myself (among many) am a sinner in need of repentance. Therefore, this question is simply based on curiosity, not intended to insult any member of the LGBTQ+ community in any way.
@AlphaOmega Since your questions was generated by one Tim Keller video, I’ll send you to another good one The short answer is that if we make sex central to our identity then we are damaging ourselves. We were created for God to be central to our identity - we were made for Him. If we supplant Him with any sexual identity, we are ultimately harming ourselves.
This video on counterfeit gods explains how when we take any thing in life other than God and make it central to our identity, like our sexuality, it is ultimately destructive.
For a fuller answer to this question, I recommend reading the following thread:
I think your conclusions regarding the nature of all sin is ‘point-on’. Sin wherever it germinates or emanates is a distortion of intended blessings and wholeness. I personally believe that at the source of sinfulness lies a seed of selfishness. That spells trouble for the individual and the world about them. Personal sin requires self-centeredness. It can not operate in tandem with a desire to love GOD or others.
Many years ago when my Mom had only one child she was told she would bear seven prophetess and one prophet. There are seven girls and one boy in our family. My mother gave birth to that exact prophetic amount. And true enough the intuitive and predicting skills of my family are well documented. What is equally clear is the distortion that personal sin has brought to our lives.
I always tell people I don’t need to worry about skeletons in my closet; cause they stroll around fleshed out and manifested in the lives of my family. I am related to some of the worst lying, dope loving, sexually deviant, stealing, denying people I know. And I thank you not to ask them too much about me for fear you might hear something I’d rather you did not.
Sin takes the gifts GOD has given us all then twist and distort those gifts into influences that could be overwhelming if not for Grace. Personally I am more frighten of the sin of lying. We are deceived into believing lying is a minor sin. That is can be color-coded or necessitated by situations. Or hidden in the obscurity of holiday traditions and observances. Or find a legitimate place for utilizing.
The Word of GOD is clear. Lying is listed among the seven things that GOD hates and declares abominable. Proverbs 6:16-19. GOD, lover of humans, hates lying! Sin is a distortion of the natural order of living. I don’t care what it is, and sin usually starts with the telling or acceptance of a lie.
Hi, everyone! I’ve been meaning to join in, and have just found the time to sit down and do so. When I was mulling over your question @AlphaOmega,
…what came to my mind was Paul’s observation in Romans: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [6:23]
So we have the broad knowledge that each time we sin, the broad consequence is that we are led into some kind of death rather than into life and flourishing. (I am guessing that that was what Keller was referring to?) If to know God and to be in relationship with Him is to know true life and flourishing, then to sin is move away from God into the realm of death.
A couple of thoughts that come out of this for me is…
I actually do believe that some good things have come out of the social destigmatisation of homosexual orientation in western society. That is, I believe it has allowed Christians in the church who struggle with same-sex attraction to be more open about that struggle and not hide it. It has also challenged the western church to have a more robust argument for Christian marriage as well as to clarify the relationship between humans and their sexual nature. Also, it needs to be said that that imprisoning, executing, or forcibly prescribing hormonal treatment for gay people is pretty terrible and incredibly dehumanising, so I, for one, am glad that there are parts of the world where this is not happening. (…and I’ll bet I’m not the only one. )
I am actually not inclined to believe in the notion of ‘human progress’, so I wouldn’t agree with the media’s take on the issue. When faced with this idea, I love what CS Lewis asked: ‘Progressing towards what?’ (see The Abolition of Man, ch. 2: ‘The Way’). I am curious to know though, if this is why you ask the question about earthly consequences? To see how/if the world’s notion of ‘progress’ can be refuted? Because I think we can speculate about the specific consequences, but I would question what good it does us to do so.
I definitely agree with you on point 1, and point 2 I myself don’t agree with the media’s take on progress either, but I wasn’t trying to speculate about how the worlds notion of progress could be refuted, but rather this was a general question about homosexuality and it’s consequences, since there always seems to be a cause and effect with sin (E.g. on adultery, divorce is possible, and it can break the family apart), but it’s just that the media (or anything for that matter) never really touches on the consequences of each decision should it be made.
This is not directly related to homosexuality but I thought it might be of interest. I remember reading Saving Truth by Abdu Murray and he wrote how people who experience gender dysphoria who get sex reassignment surgery experience a higher rate of depression and have a higher percentage of suicides, both of which aren’t recognized by the media that promotes gender neutrality and gender fluidity for the ultimate purpose of human autonomy. I will need to check his book again for reference to clarify what exactly Abdu’s point was as I don’t want to put words in his mouth, so when I get the chance I’ll post it later.
Thanks for the clarification! Please bear with me as I verbally process a bit!
In my own thinking, it’s all a massive complicated mess. Not only are the consequences of sin numerous, varied…and mostly subtle, but the causes of them are also as numerous and varied…and mostly unconscious. And they’re all intertwined with one another. Even if we try to narrow to specific sins, we will still find many complex dynamics at work, so, to me, it’s often a futile exercise.
And even if we take your specific question about homosexuality, we still need to break down what you mean when you say homosexuality… Are you referring to a disposition or a way of life? Is it an identity? Are you referring to a person who experiences sexual attraction to a member of the same biological sex? Do you mean someone who engages in sexual behaviour with a member of the same biological sex? And is the sin of ‘homosexuality’ the same as the sin of ‘heterosexuality’? Etc.
However, even if we broke it all down and figured out exactly to what we were referring, we’d find out that specific causes and effects would be numerous, varied, mostly subtle, and complexly interwoven with other factors, which makes it all the more difficult to ‘pin’ a consequence on one specific sin all the time. The consequence of any sin is more sin…both in you and in those whom you sin against. That’s why I believe Paul’s brief pronouncement in Romans is so profound: The wages of sin is death. That is, whatever the things in between - as numerous and varied as they are - the path of sin will ultimately lead to non-flourishing. A particular sin may not always beget the same immediate consequence(s), but it is guaranteed to lead into death.