Homosexuality, sex and marriage

(Anas Ansari) #1

So i dont know much about homosexuality in general (because im from india and lets say we general are not very open about anything that has sex in the word, haha) and everything Bible has to say about it so im very ignorant, but ya i generally know the practise is a sin and all, but my question is different and i dont think bible has something about it and i think its not very common question i could be wrong and i though about it. So lets say im a hetrosexual (which i am btw) and i cant control my sexual feeling that well so i have an option which is that i can get married, i think u understood where im going with this now, so lets say now if someone is homosexual and he or she has similar problems but he or she dont have that option, now thats i think a problem and i donno how it can be solved and i think bible doesnt have an answer to that i could be wrong as i said before, so ya thats my question

(Matt Western) #2

A couple of passages in the New Testament for you to have a read of so you can come to a conclusion yourself based on Scripture. Romans 1:18-32
And Paul wrote to the Christians in Corinth, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and then in verse 11 stated that the Corinthians were like this and became Christians and are now clean (and note the list of sins, I’ve been greedy in the past with money, I’ve been idolatrous by putting things/pleasure/money before God in my life, therefore I fall into this list too):

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Ravi has talked about this here:

and written about it here:

Sex and sexuality is a beautiful thing and is sacred, and that Satan has tried his best to destroy God’s perfect design. Have you pondered that God could have made humans any way he liked - with intellect, mind, will, ability to see colour, and enjoy beauty, enjoy design, enjoy music : and made sex like the flowers - that is asexual reproduction. But no he created it like it is, a very sacred and beautiful way man/woman can make their marriage stronger, and have children. I ask generally for any of these questions like these for sex, sexuality, marriage: What is God’s perfect design?

Being tempted (as a heterosexual) is not sin, but lust is. I do not struggle with same-sex attraction so I will be silent with that part of the question I have no experience in. I do not want to be like the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked and said in John 8:2-11 ‘Let him who is without sin cast the first stone’. My only thought is, we are all sinners and in need of a Saviour: Jesus Christ.

A message that has really resonated and stuck with me, in a positive way, is from the podcast I like listening to called ‘Exploring My Strange Bible’ by Tim Mackie, one of the guys that started theBibleProject. It’s called Jesus and Sexual Desire. I found it very practical, but in no way was rude or degrading about the beauty of God’s beautiful design of sex and sexual desire.


and some possible further reading here:

My personal conviction is that same-sex marriage is not God’s design based on:

  1. God who created man and woman in His own image and likeness brought them together in Marriage. (Genesis 1:27-31).
  2. Jesus, quoting Moses, confirmed Marriage as between a man and woman for life (Mark 10:6-9)
  3. Paul described the union between a man and a woman through Marriage as a faint reflection or picture of the self-sacrificial love between Christ and His Church. (Ephesians 5:25-32)

And as a concluding thought, how did Jesus treat people in his ministry on earth? He was strongly opposed to religious leaders who made it harder with tradition and empty religion by works, and was moved with compassion to those who were outcasts in society, the marginalised were the first to receive the good news of the Gospel: the prostitute Mary Magdalene, the Samaritan woman at the well who had 5 husbands, Matthew the tax collector was called to be one of the 12 disciples who became the Apostles (who the Jews hated because he’d betrayed them and worked for the occupying Romans gather taxes for Caesar). My question is who are the marginalised groups today that Jesus would move towards in love?

I hope this is a helpful starting point? :slight_smile:

My Question: SS marriage
(SeanO) #3

@HeroGuy I think your question is one about fairness and justice. How is it just for God to expect someone with strong homosexual urges to remain celibate their entire life? I think at the heart of this question are a number of misunderstandings. For example:

  • not all heterosexual people who want to marry can find a spouse easily and the Bible also requires them to remain celibate
  • there are times even in married peoples’ lives when they are unable to express themselves sexually - if one of them is very ill and bedridden for example - self-control is required of all people
  • sex is not central to Christian identity - both Paul and Jesus were single
  • our culture is addicted to sex - like any other addiction the road to healing is not easy, but once you are free there is a world of difference in how difficult it is to stay off the drug, in this case sex
  • following Christ is a call to die to ourselves - to crucify our flesh with its passions and desires - does that sound easy? That’s not easy for anyone and it is a radical call to self-sacrifice.
  • the Spirit of God gives us strength when we are weak to do what we could not apart from Him
  • God is gracious with us as we learn to honor Him - the road to Christian maturity is one in which God walks alongside us even as we struggle

I think that some of the following videos from Sam Allberry and Tim Keller could really help you build a stronger theology of singleness and how singleness is a blessing if we receive it from God.

I hope some of those thoughts were helpful. Christ grant you wisdom :slight_smile:

Sam Allberry - Sexuality, Identity and Christianity: Who Am I?

Sam Allberry - The Gospel and Singleness

Tim Keller - A Theology of Singleness

Tim Keller - Sexuality and the Christian Hope

(Anas Ansari) #4

thanks for replying, now

  1. ur first point was not everyone who wants to marry can find someone always and ya it makes sense but that was not my question the thing is they “can” find someone anytime in there life (u dont even want ur full life just few months or yrs) if they look and if they wanted but homosexual people dont have that option ever
  2. i totally agree with u we should have control even if we r married or not but again they dont have the option to marry for there life
  3. ya i know that, but not every homosexual person will able to be single for the rest of there life, sexually or romantically thats not fair
  4. ya addiction of anything is bad but im not talking about addiction
  5. ya following Christ is hard, but sexual desire is given by God its not there fault and most of them cant do that for life
  6. ya God’s spirit can help but r u saying that all of them should be single for life again thats not fair
  7. ya i know we should learn to honour God and self control but thats not what my question is

thanks for replying but i think u didint understood my question, my question in short is homosexual people dont have the option for life to marry therefore they can have sex or have romantic relationship and thats not fair at all,

(SeanO) #5

@HeroGuy Thank you for your response. I do understand your concern and I am asserting that your claim that it is unfair for a person to remain celibate for their entire life is incorrect. I agree that it is not an easy path, but then the path that Jesus took to Golgotha was not easy either, nor the lives of the apostles, nor of many faithful men and women. Jesus does not guarantee us an easy life, but a blessed one.

I believe that in our culture we worship sexuality - we think that without sex our life is incomplete. The Bible disagrees. We do not need sex to be complete human beings or to be fulfilled in this life. We do not need to express ourselves sexually. Self-control is not only a legitimate Biblical option, but one that can be incredibly blessed.

I highly suggest watching the videos from Sam Allberry and Tim Keller - they address these issues of identity and sexuality directly.

(Anas Ansari) #6

thanks for replying, so the passage that u sent i think it says that these who were adulterers, homosexual etc but then they got clean in the spirit of God and thats nice
then in ur final 3 points u basically said its not God’s plan and as a conclusion u said Jesus treated these people well who were outcast of low in society or basically sinners

and thats nice and all but thats not my question my question was homosexual people cannot marry also cant have sex or have a romantic relationship for ever and thats not fair, if its not in God’s plan for people to be homosexual why are they like this and even if they r whats the solution now to be single for ever?? the people who Jesus told the Gospel they leave there old life, adulterer can control there sexual immorality and can get married to one person, the prostitute can get marry to a good man and/ or get different kind of work for living and etc but a homosexual person cant do any of that except of course for being a single for life and thats fair if he or she wants that but we know most people would like to get married and have a romantic and sexual life thats my question

(Matt Western) #7

God created humans, we are his creation. Humans rebelled, but God is not distant, and showed his great Love for us in the person of Jesus Christ, who is God. God is committed to reaching fallen humanity.

Jesus, the perfect human, who was God incarnate, die a cruel death at the hands of his creation. John Lennox asks and very profound question: ‘What is God doing on a cross, suffering at the hands of his creation?’.

I think it wise to leave you time and space to reflect and search the Scripture yourself and come to your own conclusion and conviction. Take your time as these things should not be rushed into. Sean has shared some wonderful resources to start to ponder things further.

I am only a fellow man, and I am certainly a sinner just like everybody else on the planet. I shared that I humbly understand that in the 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 passage I have sinned just like everybody else, and am in need of Jesus Christ who died in my place on the cross to pay for my redemption. It is not my place to tell you how to live before God, in any area of life. That is between you and God.

If you only looked at one resource I shared, I would recommend the message that Tim Mackie talked on ‘Jesus and Sexual Desire’. It meant a lot to me.

Christians that hypoctrically stand on a pedestal, and shake the finger at others who do certain visible sins, whilst themselves do other sins in secret are just like the Pharisees in the New Testament. Jesus was scathing of them, pronounced 7 ‘Woes’ upon the Scribes and Pharisees, and called them ‘Whitened tombs full of dead mans bones’. :hushed:

If I view pornography habitually in secret, then I go and publicly tell off or reprimand a person for any public sexual sins, then I am in serious serious trouble before God. I am doing exactly what the Pharisees did. Check out Jesus response to them below!! I don’t want to be like that! I want to humbly show Jesus love and point towards him as the perfect Saviour.

Matthew 23:13-39

13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [a]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of[b]hell as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that [c]sanctifies the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who [d]swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who [e]dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and [f]self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and [g]adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood[h] of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

(Kathleen) #8

@HeroGuy - I hear you! As a single woman, I’ve often thought the same thing. I mean, why would God make us sexual beings if some of us would have go through life not being ‘allowed’ to express it? It’s almost like a cruel joke…like he’s with-holding life to the full and a kind of happiness/pleasure from a certain section of humanity.

In my own wrestling with this issue, though, I’ve come to realise a lot of what @SeanO has pointed out. What stood out the most to me was that I slowly realised that I was frustrated because I was believing a modern cultural narrative that elevates romantic love to a position of pinnacle experience. Sure, romantic love is wonderful and exciting, but a person is not stunted or somehow incomplete by not experiencing it. Jesus, as the complete human, didn’t have romantic or sexual relationships, BUT he knew intimacy and love. Sex is not required to know either one of those things. To put it another way: we can’t live without love, but we can live without sex. Romance is great, but romance is not ultimate. Intimate friendship and community is vital in supporting both those who are married and those who are single.

Once I could grasp that God’s boundaries around sexual expression are difficult for everyone, it became less of a issue of fairness for me. As single people miss out on the blessings unique to married life, married people, similarly, miss out on the blessings of the single life. That is, there are unique, deep blessings in both situations!

(Kathleen) #9

Hi all! (@HeroGuy, @matthew.western, @SeanO) I saw this in the most recent RZIM Digest email and thought of this thread! Here’s Sam Allberry’s first chapter in his book, 7 Myths About Singleness, entitled ‘Is Singleness Too Hard?’.

So many good snippets. The one that most resonated was this:

I was speaking to a pastor who was expressing reservations about calling same-sex-attracted members of his church to the sexual ethic we have just been outlining. He summarized his concern with these words: “How can I expect them to live without romantic hope?” I was grateful for his concern for them. Many married pastors can be blasé about what they’re asking of some of their unmarried church members. He, at least, was aware of the potential cost for them, and it mattered to him. But there was an assumption behind his concern that troubled me. The assumption was that we can’t really live without romantic hope, that a life without any potential for romantic fulfillment is unfair to demand and unbearable to experience. It assumes romantic fulfillment is fundamental to a full and complete life…To say that it is dehumanizing to be celibate is to dehumanize Christ, to deny that he came fully in the flesh and that his humanity was a “real” one.

I had never connected the dehumanising of celibacy to the dehumanising of Christ! :exploding_head:

(SeanO) #10

@KMac So true! I think this is one of the great myths in our culture - that to be truly human you must be romantically fulfilled. The modern Western definition of the ‘good life’ is disturbingly close to ‘health and wealth’. We have no good means of dealing with suffering in our culture because the path to meaning is through pleasure.

Most cultures—unlike our own—expect suffering as inevitable and see it as a means of strengthening and enriching us. Our secular culture, on the other hand, is perhaps the worst in history at helping its members face suffering. Every other culture says the meaning of life is something beyond this world and life. It may be (a) going to heaven to live with God and your loved ones forever; (b) escaping the cycle of reincarnation in order to enter eternal bliss; © escaping the illusion of the world to go into the all-Soul of the universe; (d) living a moral, virtuous, honorable life even in the face of defeat and doom; or (e) living on in your family and descendants. In each case suffering, though painful, can actually help you reach your life goal and complete your life story.

But in secular culture the meaning of life is to be free to choose what makes you happy in this life. Suffering destroys that meaning. And so, in the secular view, suffering can have no meaning at all. It can’t be a chapter in your life story—it is just the interruption or even the end of your life story.

(Matt Western) #11

Yes I think this is true not just of pastors but also married members of the church congregation could also be very unthinking about this as well.

Thankyou for sharing - I’ll take a look at the first chapter of the book to learn more.

As one of the other forum members quipped : I think my reading list will last longer than I will. The hardest part is trying to keep focus on a previously started topic or book and see it through to the end. :slight_smile:

(Rebecca Fohner) #12

Hi Anas,
I understand the desire to want to be married. I remember having a great desire to be married when I was still single, and learning then that God will not deprive me. God will not deprive you either. I have had to come to the point time and again where I say, “Not my will, but Yours. I will follow You no matter what.” And it is hard to say yes to Jesus when you know that may mean you never get what you want. But Jesus will always, always provide what we need. What we need most is Him. We can have everything we ever desired, but it will still be lacking if we cannot find contentment in Jesus. It is hard–so very hard! But the other way is no way at all. And we have the Holy Spirit always beside us to comfort and encourage us along the way. Jesus never married or had children, but instead suffered and died as we were supposed to suffer and die (Isaiah 53:7-12). We worship a suffering Savior who knows our pain. He died that we may have something better than marriage, better than parenthood: a relationship with the Holy God Himself. I have found that He is enough.

(Luna) #13

@HeroGuy I understand what you’re saying. I for one struggle with same sex attraction and at first thought life seems unfair and in a lot of cases it is. But the truth is we forget that God fulfills us more than sex and marriage ever could. We use relationships to understand God better. And when you realize that its not about us but everything is about God then things come into perspective.

I was addicted to lust as well (best way to explain it without breaking any rules) and it made sexual urges extremely hard to control. I had to learn that I couldn’t control something like that on my own but only with God’s help. And he really did help me. When you learn that there’s more to life than sex and romance/relationships and allow God to heal any brokenness that contributes to not having control then you actually become more prepared for marriage/sex when done right. And if that doesn’t happen you are healthy enough emotionally to deal with it will properly.

And the bible does have an answer for this he’s called Jesus. lol He is to be our source for joy, love, peace, and contentment. When he isn’t then you see that your focus is more on things that will pass away and don’t fulfill you. You can have joy and be happy in life regardless of your singleness or companionship.