This was asked of me by someone and I wasn’t too sure how to go about answering. I gave the example of peter talking about Paul’s writings as scripture. But I didn’t have the words to explain it. They also said Jesus never said that the New Testament was scripture. They also said that peter wasn’t authoritative. I wanted to dispute that but wasn’t sure how to. Any help on this would be appreciated.
Just out of curiosity…Does this person think that the old testament is scripture?
@joncarp I’m not sure I didn’t ask. I thought about asking but didn’t get the chance since they were giving me question after question. They also sound Jewish from how they were talking.
@Luna, ok, because if they do believe the Old Testament is Scripture then you could just go into proving Jesus is the Messiah from the Old Testament Scriptures. If they don’t believe the Old Testament is Scripture, then you might ask, Do they believe anything is Scripture? Do they believe God exists?
True. I did ask him to provide evidence the New Testament wasn’t scripture and to provide that the narrative of Jesus changed over time with the gospels. He claimed they were so far apart written and that Paul changed a bunch of stuff. He said a lot about Paul that was negative. Claiming the disciples never knew Paul. I showed him Galatians where Paul wrote about meeting with Peter and others to make sure he was preaching the same gospel. He said he was lying. Eventually he gave up on the conversation because he couldn’t back up what he was saying and I was showing him scripture that answered his claims.
@Luna Yeah, to be honest, whenever I’ve been in a conversation where someone seems completely closed off to the New Testament, I usually get the impression there’s a deeper emotional objection behind there somewhere. But in the past what I have done is just tried to meet the person at the level of their own skepticism and ask them what they are willing to accept, and build from there. Because if they accept the Old Testament then you could go right into:
-Daniel 7:13-14 (Messiah would be Divine)
-Daniel 9:25-26 (Messiah would die and then the Temple would be destroyed. Since the temple was destroyed in 70AD, the Messiah would have to have come before that time.)
And if they don’t accept that, then you could go into the arguments for God’s existence. Personally, I like to start with the Cosmological Argument. I know I’m not answering your question in a literal way, but that’s how I’ve tried to engage that question in the past with a person who seems completely closed off to the New Testament. Hopefully someone else from Connect will be able to give a more complete response to the question directly.
I had the same question, I asked my youth pastor and he said this “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
John 10:27 ESV so when a believer who has Gods Spirit in them reads the NT it resonates with them differently than say the work of Plato
Well, I will try my best to present the reliability of the NT. Unlike other historical records which were written centuries after the event, the Gospel of Mark, possibly the first account of Jesus’ life was written before 75 AD or 70 AD. Please note that this usually is the latest date for the Gospel of Mark. Some say that it is even possible that Mark was written as early as 40AD.
Even if we assume Mark wrote the Gospel after 70 AD, it is not late at all. Just more than one generation had passed by 70 AD. So, it was impossible for myths to have formed. The history of Alexander the Great which was written 400 years after his death, by no means is considered as a made up story. Since many of the contemporaries of Jesus both enemies and followers were alive during 60s, they could have corrected it.
If not Mark, then Paul was possibly the first one to write about Jesus. Some of Paul’s epistles can be dated back as early as to 55 AD or even earlier. Moreover, Paul as far as I know, doesn’t contradict with Jesus’ teachings. Paul also mentioned about the last supper of Christ.
Since the resurrection of Christ is a historical fact, His claims become true. Jesus said “though heaven and earth shall pass away, my word shall not pass away.” I don’t know my second argument is a good one. Yet, I can be sure that what Jesus said are now in my hands in the form of NT.
I recommend the following resource:
Especially Chapter 2. In this book he asks the question of whether or not the idea of canon is something intrinsic or extrinsic to scripture. He argues that the first century Jews read the Old Testament as incomplete, a work which lacked a conclusion. They would have been in search of the promised Messiah prophesied about in the Old Testament and would have thought to capture the acts and words of the Messiah as a completion of Scripture, making this work itself Scripture.
N. T. Wright says, “The great story of the Hebrew scriptures was therefore inevitably read in the Second Temple period as a story in search of a conclusion.” They would have known what they were doing and would have considered their work as Scripture. This of course is implicit, but is strengthened by the scripture you just mentioned where Peter refers to the work of Paul as Scripture.
There, of course, is a lot more to this. I would be happy to fill in any gaps as much as I can.
@Joshua_Hansen Would you possibly have any videos or websites I could visit until I can get the book?
Not off the top of my head. Do you happen to live in the US and have a library card?
If so, you should have access to this site:
You should check your libraries website with how to log in. The book is on there as an ebook that you should be able to read for free.
Hi @Luna, another way to get it free is on digital library archive.org; it’s currently on loan so you could join the queue and wait for it to be returned (digitally). It’s free to join. I found a couple of Ravi Zacharius books on there as well.
Sorry somehow I posted that scripture without a comment. Fumble fingers I guess.
I also would like to know if he believes the one testament which we call the old testament.
Isaiah 29 says
Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.” Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the Lord , And their works are in the dark; They say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?” Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, “He did not make me”? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”? Is it not yet a very little while Till Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, And the fruitful field be esteemed as a forest? In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, And the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. The humble also shall increase their joy in the Lord , And the poor among men shall rejoice In the Holy One of Israel. For the terrible one is brought to nothing, The scornful one is consumed, And all who watch for iniquity are cut off— Who make a man an offender by a word, And lay a snare for him who reproves in the gate, And turn aside the just by empty words. Therefore thus says the Lord , who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob: “Jacob shall not now be ashamed, Nor shall his face now grow pale; But when he sees his children, The work of My hands, in his midst, They will hallow My name, And hallow the Holy One of Jacob, And fear the God of Israel. These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding, And those who complained will learn doctrine.”
Isaiah 29:14-24 NKJV
Multitudes of skeptical people believed the world was flat but they found out the truth when they searched the ocean blue. What’s even astounding to me there is still a flat earth society. The new testament mirrors the old.
I Cor. 1:23
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
There are in all two hundred and eighty-three direct quotations from the Hebrew bible the old testament. Pray for an impartation of divine revelation that he would see the truth of Christ.
Praying with you