I am trying to convince a couple who are giving out this book written by Lothar Schafer ( and Deepak Chopra I might add), as they are using this book to show “how much God loves us” via the understanding of quantum theory and infinite potential along with a message about Christ. I am a bit simple but devoted to Christ and scriptural authority, and have read Ravi’s Jesus among other gods and Jesus among secular gods, and am really unsure how to persuade them this Deepak/Schafer book is bad news. It smacks of eastern spiritualism and science combined. They use it as a relevant tool to show God’s love, they say.They tell about Christ and then share this book!!! Help?
@mitwit It appears that this book advocates quantum physics as evidence for cosmic consciousness, which is a form pantheism.
pantheism: a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God
Schafer uses classical Christian arguments about the irrationality of reason and order arising from non-reason and the complexities / mysteries of both quantum physics and human self-awareness to argue that the universe itself is conscious. god is the universe / the universe is god…
In contrast to this pantheistic view of the universe, the Bible is theistic - God is outside the universe and created it. We see this truth very clearly throughout the Bible, but Hebrews 1 will serve as a good example. God created the world and He will one day ‘roll up the heavens like a scroll’. God created the universe - He is not one with it.
Hebrews 1:10-12 - “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
What is cosmic consciousness?
In 1901, Richard Maurice Bucke – a Canadian psychiatrist – wrote a book about Cosmic Consciousness, in which he defined it as the highest of three levels of consciousness found in living beings:
- Simple consciousness, which both mankind and animals possess;
- Self-consciousness, which includes thought, reason, and imagination and that mankind possesses; and
- Cosmic Consciousness, which is a higher and more spiritual consciousness than most ordinary people possess.
For Bucke, Cosmic Consciousness included a spiritual understanding that there is eternal life and that God is the whole universe. He saw all things as being interconnected – a part of the cosmic consciousness. A popular meditation and spirituality figure in the West, Deepak Chopra has postulated that the concept of Cosmic Consciousness may be related to the hidden dimensions of quantum mechanics.
Thank you SeanO. That is so very helpful! This is such a good clarification!! I am now putting together some additional solid biblical warnings and encouragements for this couple, along with prayer and hope for their correction from the false way.I just didn’t understand what in the sam hill quantum had to do with anything!! I think it must be just another way to worship the creature and not the Creator. Thank you from the heart! Mitzi
@mitwit Glad it was helpful and may the Lord Jesus guide you as you share with your friends
Sean O, would you mind if I share your post/link with them? Mitzi
@mitwit Of course - always feel free to do so Connect is here as a conversational resource for folks with questions. If they have additional questions feel free to post those as well.
Love this reply. I needed this for what I am doing. Thank you so much.
@mitwit, how sad to see Christianity being intermingled with eastern spirituality that is completely at odds with the Bible. Here’s a short debate between Greg Koukl, a Christian apologist and Chopra that reveals how much at odds Chopra is with the Jesus of the Bible. Chopra says we can’t know the truth when Jesus says He is the truth, he denies biblical scriptural authority and argues for a pantheistic God and mysticism. Chopra’s works will turn people away from Christ and the true gospel of the Bible.
@Lakshmismehta Thank you for posting that video. It was so interesting to listen to because Chopra and Koukl were essentially talking past each other. Koukl was trying to assert truth claims, whereas Chopra was convinced that religious truth is ultimately unknowable. The only path to knowledge of religious truth for Chopra is to search within yourself for some hint of divinity and even that is only vague. By the end of the video, I could tell that Chopra even found certainty regarding religious truth to be a distasteful concept that leads to oppression - part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
I think 1 Corinthians is very helpful in this context. Paul is clear that what Chopra says is partially true - men in their wisdom cannot know God. It is God’s Spirit who makes Him known. So a person who is trying to find God only by means of worldly wisdom is always going to be left frustrated. It is only through the Gospel - by coming to God on His own terms - that we can have knowledge of God. For who knows the mind of God but the Spirit of God?
And I think that is one reason people who come to the Bible without really knowing God leave with so many confused and diverse views. They lack the mind of God so that they cannot ultimately make sense of what they reading - they understand it on the level of ideas, but they have not the spiritual discernment to understand at a heart level the truth of what is being taught. They are always seeking but never comprehending.
1 Cor 1:18-24 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
I Cor 2:10-14 - The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Thank you for your help. I will share this video with them if they allow it as I speak with them.
@mitwit You may find this video from Ravi helpful as well. That particular video with Koukl and Chopra does not necessarily help clarify the difference between pantheism and theism. It is more so Koukl and Chopra arguing over whether or not Christianity has a solid basis in the historical evidence.
Ravi - East Meets West
Beautiful! So thankful for his ministry.
This was the lady in question’s response to me after my asking her to not give this book out coupled with a message of the “gospel” …
Her answer to me,as follows,
"We never give out this book without first talking about the good news of Jesus Christ
We focused on the Quantum Physics aspects of the Creator, which helped to understand the scientific thought that leads to understanding the spiritual truth that the Creator of the universe loves His creation.
This basic knowledge of QP has assisted in being able to reach out to many younger people in terms they can understand if perhaps they would choose to accept Christ."
and that is all she wrote in response.
I will see how she responds with some of your input and also from Lakshmismehta. Hoping to expose the lie. Thanks all, Mitzi
@mitwit You may not want to confront her too directly. She has obviously found great value in Chopra’s book and it may be more helpful to try to do a short study on the differences between pantheism and theism with her. Telling her that the book is dangerous and she should stop may only cause her to ignore what you are saying. I do not know her, but I would advise asking her why she finds the book valuable and listening before trying to get her to stop sharing it. In the end, it is her decision what she does and I suspect she will be more inclined to listen if you listen patiently to her view first.
Colossians 4:6 - Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
Christ grant you wisdom
A little background, although I feel I am taking much of your time. This couple was at one time deeply deeply involved with the The Way International for years. (The Way doctrine denied the Trinity but exalted it’s followers as sons of God with ALL power to exercise at their own will as long as they submitted to the ‘leadership’). They did come away from this organization and have spent some years relearning the bible and have confessed Jesus as Lord and God. We thought they were pretty solid in their recovery.??
This week, they came to my home and brought this book by Schafer (because they had met him and Schafer gave them 1000 copies of this book to pass out). They read it and when they came to my house, they talked for 2 1/2 hours about the greatness of quantum and consciousness and our common potential of divinity , and all is one and one is all, and on and on mixed with interpreting the bible in light of this book.They have some relationship with him on occasion it seems, although he suffers from Alzheimer’s.
Neither my husband nor I was able to get in a word, we just listened. Then they left and I had a big headache, wondered what just hit us, but the next day I scanned the book, having already some knowledge of Ravi’s books on eastern mysticism. But the need to reach out here was really on my heart, as I needed the responses I have received from you all.
I will pray and be gentle, and your advice is heartily taken!!! This is a new situation for me.
@mitwit Oh wow, will definitely pray for wisdom. I pray that they might be more deeply and firmly rooted in the Christ and in His truth so that they are not tossed about by every wave of doctrine. Jesus be with you.
I have actually been discussing with a friend who has been influenced by the eastern view on religions. She was very keen to stress that at some point reincarnation was actually in The Bible and it was taken out(I won’t get into all the details of this claim). This was a pretty big claim that I had never heard before so it was all very new. I asked her to explain and give me details. After that I did some research. Turned out it was no more than an implausible conspiracy theory which did not correlate to historical facts, documents or Christian doctrine. I believe that any of these spectacular claims can be disproved if you just do some research and show them why it does not correlate to the Bible. Show them the truth and pray that God changes their heart. Truth is on our side.
I dont know if this is going to help much but I was recently reading a Gregory Koukl book and I found an interview where Koukl debates Chopra and absolutely dismantles everything he says. Chopra doesn’t seem to have much in depth knowledge about what he preaches. Even Chopra says at some point that he is uncertain of his beliefs(something among those lines). I saw someone posted a part of it here. Here is an extended look:
Thank you for that. After conversing with them twice on these very matters, they have decided that quantum physics/ coupled with Chopra’s cosmic consciousness philosophy shows that God exists and that He loves His creation. They say they can ignore Chopra and go with the Schafer/Chopra book anyway. Even though I have tried to convince them Chopra is the writer of the philosophy in the book. They aren’t interested in my views so I may have to leave it at that. I don’t know what else to do at this point. I might add they give out the book and somehow combine the gospel with it. They are vague in sharing just how they do that.
@mitwit Sorry to hear that they are not willing to listen at this time, but I am encouraged that you have sought to speak truth. May the seeds you have planted bear fruit and may the Lord Jesus open their eyes to discern truth from error and prevent anyone else from being led astray. You know, it is amazing how when someone starts seeking God even with the wrong materials they very often find the Truth if that is truly what they are seeking, so may the Lord use even their efforts to bring people into the Kingdom.