Muslims and Christian God is the same God? (ontological perspective)

(Yosua Hardistianto) #1

Hi, i want to ask a question

Of course there is a difference attribute, properties and character between christian and muslim god. But what if ontologicaly they are the same things?? It is just human worldview that corrupted that perceive things differently. In a nutshell is like saing allah from muslim is the same things as “father” or first person of trinity ??

Thanks and God bless

(SeanO) #2

@yosua.hardistianto The answer to the question is a definitive no. The God worshiped by Abraham and Christ is not the same, even ontologically. First of all, the God of Christianity is Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Second, Christians clearly claims Jesus is God while Muslims explicitly deny this claim. I’ve included an article from Nabeel Qureshi at the bottom that shares how his own views have developed.

In Scripture, what is crucial is to know God - not to just know about God. And we see that when Jesus encounters both a Samaritan (woman at the well) and the Pharisees (who claim to worship YHWH but in truth do not) Jesus points out that the god they worship is false. The Samaritans do not know God and the Pharisees deny God by their actions and show that their heart has a different master.

John 17:3 - Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The Example of the Samaritans

The Samaritans would have been closer to the Jews in beliefs than Muslims and yet Jesus is clear that the Samaritans ‘do not know’ whom they worship and that ‘salvation is of the Jews’.

John 4:19-23 - The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

The Example of the Pharisees

The Pharisees even had the correct Scriptures, but Jesus pointed out that their father was not God but the devil, for they lied and murdered just like their father. In contrast, anyone who knows the Father would recognize Jesus as Lord.

John 8:19-47 - Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”

You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20 He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Nabeel Qureshi Article

I should start by saying this: for years after leaving Islam and accepting Jesus as Lord, I believed that Muslims worshiped the same God as Christians but that they were simply wrong about what He is like and what He has done. After all, I had been taught as a young Muslim to worship the God who created Adam and Eve, who rescued Noah from the flood, who promised Abraham a vast progeny, who helped Moses escape Egypt, who made the Virgin Mary great with child, who sent Jesus into the world, who helped the disciples overcome, and who is still sovereign today. Is that not the God of the Bible?

For years I thought it did, but I no longer do. Now I believe that the phrase “Muslims and Christians worship the same God” is only true in a fairly uncontroversial sense: There is one Creator whom Muslims and Christians both attempt to worship. Apart from this banal observation, Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. I do not condemn those that think they do, but the deeper I delve into the Christian faith, the more I realize that this assertion is not only untrue but also subverts Christian orthodoxy in favor of Islamic assertions.

(Jimmy Sellers) #3

To what @SeanO has posted I would like to add that a bigger issue in my mind is what do we do with the Jesus of the Qur’an. There is quite a bit written about Jesus and very little is in agreement with the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of the Qur’an cannot both be right, they can both be wrong. Here is a link from a post that summarized my thoughts from previous answering Islam RZIM conference.

(Yosua Hardistianto) #4

Thanks . Great answer

(Yosua Hardistianto) #5

Interesting tought. But how do we know that both can be wrong at the same times?? In your post it is said that abraham is about a division not unity. How can one implies that both quran and bible both wrong ?

(SeanO) #6

@yosua.hardistianto I think what Jimmy is saying is that if two things contradict they cannot both be right. One or the other can be right or they can both be wrong.

For example, if I say “it is 2 PM EST right now” and someone else says “it is 5 AM EST right now” both of those statements cannot be right. Both people could be wrong or one of them could be right. It could be 5 AM but not 2 PM. Or it could be 2 PM but not 5 AM. But it cannot be both 5 AM and 2 PM.

Similarly, the Jesus depicted in the Bible and the Quran, since they are contradictory, cannot both be accurate. However, we believe the Bible is the correct portrayal of Jesus! In this case, the Bible’s portrayal is accurate and the Quran’s is not accurate.

Would you agree @Jimmy_Sellers? Hope I did not misunderstand.

(Yosua Hardistianto) #7

Yes. The non contradictory rules