Outside God's Decreed Will

I respect this ministry very much. I know this ministry is very capable of answering this question. I do not expect to agree with what you write but I would love to hear the argument. I will let you know that I listen to RC Sproul and the reformers on this topic. I hear their arguments. I agree with their arguments. And I know we can’t explain everything. Pleasewould you graciously give me your best argument for something being outside of the plan of God. Was sin outside of the plan of God? Did God change His plans when we sinned?

3 Likes

Hi, Corey @Corey. Thank you for your question. I have a few questions for you. Can you expound a little on “I do not expect to agree with what you write but would love to hear the argument?” What is important to you about argument? What do you think argument over ideas in Christian circles is about? What are your thoughts on how this argument would point others to Jesus?

5 Likes

There goes a little bit of where I’m coming from.

But more than this… when somebody says “everything wasn’t according to God’s plan” (like sin entering the world), or has in their thinking process that God is just cleaning up the mess that we made then it kind of sounds like what they’re saying is God had plan A and then we messed that plan up so plan B came along. So then if we’re thinking like that then there can be plan C D E F and G (all depending on Man’s “Free” Will.

Something like: Paul could have said no to Jesus and then Jesus would have had to use somebody else. But Jesus knew Paul would say yes to Him so that’s why Jesus chose Paul because He knew Paul would say yes.

I’m talking about God ordaining that all things would come to pass not just because He seen into the future and what He seen would happen influenced Him to make certain choices because of certain responses we make. I do not understand how God would be the One that ordained all things to come to pass and yet not be responsible for sin but I could definitely show you Scripture verses that confirm that God is the One that pulls all these things off (all things are according to the counsel of His will and all things are for Him and through Him and to Him) and yet is not responsible for the sin that we willingly committed.

So I’m looking for this beautiful Ministry to explain to me how Man’s Free Will triumphs God’s will?

Or how there can be a single maverick molecule outside of the will of God?

Some doctrines would be resistible Grace. Conditional election. I’ve even heard a pastor that’s really famous say that God cannot overcome unbelief.

The devotion I sent in the beginning will you to understand a bit where I am coming from. And yes a good reason I’ve made up my mind is because the arguments from the reformer are much stronger especially when it comes to Ephesians chapter 1 ,Romans starting in chapter 8:28 all the way through 11, John chapter 6, John chapter 10, John chapter 17, when they talk about the doctrines of Grace and predestination and election. I’ve heard Frank Turek argument saying something like this is the best God can do with free creatures) and I’ve heard some of Dr. Geisler’s argument on why he’s not a 5 point calvinist. I don’t believe it lines up with Scripture and I don’t believe there’s anything in Scripture that says that God looks down the line of time and seen that we were going to choose Him and that’s why He chose us before the foundation of the world (John 1:13 and Rom 9:16 say not by the will of man). Doesn’t match up with Scripture. Dr. James White has been a good one to argue from Scripture for the reformers. The arminian View seems to think that all that the Father gives the Son MIGHT come to the Son.

AND then that would mean that the promise they “WILL COME” is not true we couldn’t trust any of His other promises.

I could ask some arminian friends if God loses His sheep and they tell me yes He does. God says He doesn’t.

I do not believe in double predestination. We willingly chose to sin against a holy God. And God has to right to pass over some and have mercy on some. Romans 9 says that’s exactly what He does. Unto salvation.

So the question is: I’m wanting to have an understanding of the argument that the arminian view holds to when it comes to something (anything) being outside of the decreed will or hidden will of God (like sin)?

Sorry for any typos or misunderstandings

Much love and respect family. I really do appreciate your ministry. And Ravi Zacharias and the team of apologist has helped me greatly.

3 Likes

Before I jump in would you agree me that the issue of free will versus predestination is not a salvation issue i.e. one is right (you are saved) the other is wrong (you are lost)?

I ask because the argument generally follows this line of thinking. They both agree that Jesus is the truth the way and the life, the object of faith and the only way to the Father. So I think that is safe to agree that that the “who” is not in question but the “how” is. How do we arrive at what we call saving faith? Are we chosen or do we choice or could it be both?

Another question that naturally flows from this discussion is how sovereign is God? Is he sovereign to the atomic level or is he sovereign even if he allows for free will? After all doesn’t the atomic sovereign God by definition have to allows for evil in this world why not freewill?

Free will needs to be defined. Here is a definition that should help move the conversation along.

The “liberty of indifference” (libertarian freedom 1 ) is the freedom to have done otherwise than in actual fact we chose to do on any occasion in the past. Faced with a choice between two courses of action in the future, liberty of indifference would imply that the choice is completely open. I can choose either course of action indifferently; and having chosen the one course of action, I can, on looking back, know that I could equally well have freely chosen the other course. I can choose, or could have chosen, to do X or not-X. John Lennox, Determined to Believe

Thoughts comments?

4 Likes

Thank you for explaining and clarifying. I appreciate and applaud the fact that you are reaching out to understand another point of view. First, if you would like, there is a lot of discussion about this particular issue in the “Book Discussion” category, where a group was going through John Lennox’s Determined to Believe (which is what Jimmy quoted from). I have not finished it yet (it is still on my nightstand waiting :slight_smile: ), but from how it started out, I know that it might really shed some good light on the issues surrounding predestination and free will. You may find anything we might have to say covered in those thorough discussions :).

To start, I want to point out that we do not speak for the RZIM team. We are just here to love and serve others in Christ. Added to this, we are bound together into one body of Christ, despite how we may differ on these issues, and so I would prayerfully encourage us to remember to “put on the mind of Christ” as we discuss in search of understanding of one another as sisters and brothers in Christ.

My position on God having the right to pass over some is that He certainly does have the right, but the question is not does He have the right, but is that His will? The Bible makes it very clear that it is not in Peter’s second epistle in 3:9 when he gives the reason for God’s long-suffering with people: He is willing that none should perish.

From what I understand, people misunderstand what the Bible means when it talks about predestination and election. We read that with a very modern understanding of what those terms mean. However, the Bible does not mean the same thing we do when we think of those words. Theologically speaking, that would be an incorrect definition according to what has been done in Christ (I will explain), and culturally, election certainly was not understood the way we understand it today ;). I was listening to a talk from Michael Ramsden this week, and he reminded me about a very simple truth about how the sinner becomes one with Christ in his death and resurrection. We have remember that we are represented before God IN Christ, IN Christ’s righteousness–not our own. We are not elected individually. We are elected IN Christ, chosen and predestined IN and with Christ when we make the decision to accept his sacrifice for our sins and to take up the hope of his resurrection. The Bible states that IN Christ, all God’s promises are yes (2 Corinthians 1:20). It is in that becoming one with him in his death and resurrection where the election and predestination lies. God ordained Christ, and in so doing, chose and predestined all those who would chose to believe on and follow him.

A sobering fact about saying that God only chooses to save some is that it is a distortion of the gospel, because the gospel is an invitation to everyone–not only to some. The idea of resistible grace is seen in the book of Hebrews 6:4-6–those who were once enlightened are able to fall away. Paul makes no argument that God has not chosen them, but uses this as a warning to his readers to watch themselves so that they don’t do the same thing. This warning is useless and pointless if God had already chosen to pass them over, which, again, would also go against the fact that the invitation of the gospel is for everyone. And I think you are right when you state that God does not lose some, so how does this “falling away” work with that? 1 John 2:19 gives us the answer: he says if people were really part of “us,” the people of God, they would have never left (again, referring to their decision, not to a decision made on their behalf). I believe Hebrews speaks of people getting a taste of the heavenly things and all those things promised in Christ, and they stay with it for a while but for whatever reason never actually accept it and “fall away.” Matthew 13:3-9 is a good illustration of this–different heart and head responses to the good news. For me, the Calvinistic point of view was birthed from the misunderstanding of what the Bible means by predestination and election in an attempt to understand how free will and God’s sovereignty work. Added to this, it is a misunderstanding of what sovereignty means concerning God’s rule (John Lennox addresses this if you read the suggested book :slight_smile: ). God’s sovereignty is shown in the fact that He conquered evil THROUGH evil on the cross in Jesus Christ. The fact that God is able to take something evil people do and use it to bring about HIS purposes absolutely proves and shows His sovereignty.

As for saying that there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that God “looks down the line of time,” though that wording is not found, we see plenty of evidence in the Bible of God’s sovereign foreknowledge. He is outside of time, and therefore knows all. However, God also knows the hearts of people, as was said of Jesus (John 2:24), and the Bible even says God “knew” the psalmist BEFORE he was formed in his mother’s womb (Jeremiah 1:5), which means, however He does it (looking down the line of time or knowing all things from all times spontaneously), He does indeed see and know people even before they are born.

For me, the bottom line is, God’s will is that none should perish. When we say that God has the right to pass over some if He so wishes, we are misconstruing and confusing what He has the right to do with what He has the will to do.

Let me know your thoughts, and please, if something in what I am saying seems unclear, let me know, and I will try to clarify it. I have intentionally refrained from conversations such as this one in the past because I was still thinking through arguments, so this is my first time actually addressing this much in conversation :slight_smile:.

In the love of Christ,

Lindsay

4 Likes

I edited this a lot to add things as they come to me, so you may want read a few times to make sure I didn’t add as you were reading, ha :slight_smile:

Lindsay, you have a good apologetic.

“God ordained Christ, and in so doing, chose and predestined all those who would chose to believe on and follow him.”

But what you said right here pretty much said exactly what I said when I was stating that God look down time seeing all those who would choose Him so He chose them because they chose Him first. It says that nowhere in the Bible. That was what I was trying to make a point about.

Thank you for your detailed response. And I really appreciate what you said here:

We are just here to love and serve others in Christ. Added to this, we are bound together into one body of Christ, despite how we may differ on these issues, and so I would prayerfully encourage us to remember to “put on the mind of Christ” as we discuss in search of understanding of one another as sisters and brothers in Christ.

One thing is this, we know God does not lose any of his sheep. We also know that not all of the people are His sheep. The Father gave the Son people (John 17). I do not know who are the sheep He has chosen to give the Son and my job and privilege is to love everybody - all my neighbors - as if they were His.

If Father God gave everybody to the Son then everybody would be saved because Jesus loses none of His sheep.

And we could also look at 2Peter 3:9 as He is patient not wanting any of His sheep to perish.

Commentary on 2nd Peter 3:9 . How John MacArthur puts it. Not slack. That is, not loitering or late (cf. Gal. 4:4; Titus 2:13; Heb. 6:18; 10:23, 37; Rev. 19:11). longsuffering toward us. Us is the saved, the people of God. He waits for them to be saved. God has an immense capacity for patience before He breaks forth in judgment (cf. v. 15; Joel 2:13; Luke 15:20; Rom. 9:22; 1 Pet. 3:15). God endures endless blasphemies against His name, along with rebellion, murders, and the ongoing breaking of His law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own. It is not impotence or slackness that delays final judgment; it is patience. not willing that any should perish. The any must refer to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed, i.e., the us. Since the whole passage is about God’s destroying the wicked, His patience is not so He can save all of them, but so He can receive all His own. He can’t be waiting for everyone to be saved, since the emphasis is that He will destroy the world and the ungodly. Those who do perish and go to hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ, not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. The path to damnation is the path of a non-repentant heart; it is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin (cf. Is. 55:1; Jer. 13:17; Ezek. 18:32; Matt. 11:28; 23:37; Luke 13:3; John 3:16; 8:21, 24; 1 Tim. 2:3, 4; Rev. 22:17). all should come to repentance. All (cf. us, any ) must refer to all who are God’s people who will come to Christ to make up the full number of the people of God. The reason for the delay in Christ’s coming and the attendant judgments is not because He is slow to keep His promise, or because He wants to judge more of the wicked, or because He is impotent in the face of wickedness. He delays His coming because He is patient and desires the time for His people to repent.

I could also bring up a commentary on Hebrews 6:4-6. I’m not going to do that. I just thank you for your response.

If we lost our Salvation then I would say we never had it. If we give our Salvation away then again I would say we never had it. You are right about 1st John 2:19… All that go out from us were never of us because Christ loses none of His Sheep.

I’m really wanting to know about the argument for something being outside of the will of God?

Thank you so much for your response.

2 Likes

Hello, Corey. Thank you for your response. Some good thoughts here.

Okay, so I hear you on this and am moving forward (though I think the previous things may be important for this conversation because everything, I think, overlaps and ties in together at some point):

To add clarity, I’m going to add a bit of your explanation from your previous response:

I agree that this is somewhat confusing, and we won’t have all the answers, and I certainly do not, either. I know there are flaws in arguments from all sides. I can only offer you my best line of thought on this, and I know others (we do have people from a variety of backgrounds here on Connect, including people of the Reformed tradition :slight_smile:) will have some good thoughts on this also–certainly people who have studied this far more in depth than I have. But until someone else chips in, I will certainly do my best to wrestle with this with you, as I do not have the answers either. I only know that the gospel message makes it clear that Christ died for all–not all his sheep–but for all people and that anything that seems to contradict or distort that must be handled with caution. I might have a couple of thoughts to offer–for the pennies that they are worth :slight_smile: . I’ll start with my first one so that I might get a better grasp of how you are understanding some of the key concepts. When you say this:

where do you see that God has ordained ALL things that come to pass? I may be missing it, but I do not see any Scripture in the Bible that necessarily says He ordains every single thing that comes to pass.

Also, let me know what you think about what @Jimmy_Sellers Jimmy said, as well. He is very knowledgeable and has a lot to bring to the table in a conversations such as this one :slight_smile:.

Romans 11:36 NASB
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6 NASB
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 NASB
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, [19] and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might [20] which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, [21] far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. [22] And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, [23] which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Hebrews 2:10 NASB
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

And I know there’s some in Isaiah and actually all throughout the Bible. Here goes a link way better than I could come up with.

1 Like

Jimmy,
Sorry I have not responded to your message yet.

Jimmy,
Thanks for you response.

You sent something from Dr. Lennox.
Lennox states: “Faced with a choice between two courses of action in the future, liberty of indifference would imply that the choice is completely open. I can choose either course of action indifferently; and having chosen the one course of action, I can, on looking back, know that I could equally well have freely chosen the other course. I can choose, or could have chosen, to do X or not-X.”

Are we all the way dead in sin or half alive? What is the state of man? While we are enemies of God do we choose God and then because we choose God God chooses us? A way that I’ve heard it said was we are sick lying in the bed and the remedy got put in front of us and we have to choose to grab the remedy. Where in Scripture does it say that I’m half-alive, able to grab the remedy?

I know you are a strong believer in your faith and I know you will present many great arguments and I really appreciate your arguments, Jimmy. But I know we will disagree on predestination. I know that the belief of the Armenian friends are that God just predestined people to service and not to Salvation. I think Romans chapter 9 obliterates that argument but again I’ve heard that chapter spoken about in a way by Frank Turek that was completely off the subject of individual salvation so I could see both sides. And I can’t choose to believe both sides. One’s right and one’s wrong. I’ve chosen to believe the way the 5 point calvinist reformers have articulated that chapter. Again, Doctor James White has been consistent in arguing that chapter for many many years. And I have not seen (read of) or heard (listened to) anybody that argues that chapter better than Dr. White while being consistent in their theology. If you know of somebody please can you send the link here so that I can listen to or read the argument for Romans chapter 9 that says that it was only unto service and not unto salvation. I know Leighton Flowers tries to argue that point. I’ve watched both the arguments from both sides and yes I’ve made my choice. I’m not saying that I could walk around and point out the elect and the non-elect. Know one know but God. But I can say that Man’s “Free” Will does not Triumph God’s will.
Did God make me sin? No! The first Adam represented us perfectly. And I freely chose to sin. That’s the Free Will I had. Nobody forced me to sin. God ultimately has the freedom of the will to do as He pleases, correct? He created all things and placed us where we are and desired that we do not send but allowed for that to happen and then also allows any and all things to come to pass the way they do? Here is a question I would like you to answer for me if you choose to. It would help me a lot. How can we be in bondage to sin and have free will? If I only have one nature, that is a sin nature, how can I choose anything outside of that nature (Unless I have been made alive or quickened to make that choice)? What is Jesus setting us free from if we are free enough to make a right choice for Him? Did Jesus start a work in everybody on the cross putting everybody on neutral ground (breaking the curse of the first Adam’s sin)? And if Jesus died on the cross breaking the change of the fall of Man which put us in a state of being slaves to sin putting us in a neutral state or better yet starting a work in someone’s (everyone’s) heart but then doesn’t finish the work He started in that person’s heart wouldn’t that be inconsistent with Philippians 1:6? Would it not be true that since we were saved because we made a righteous choice (a right choice) and not because of God the Father’s Sovereign choice who gave the Son people (as John 17 implies), would that still be Grace? What is the definition of grace?

I know there are alot of questions. Forgive me for being so overwhelming with the questions.

What I think I’m understanding in the argument is God’s decreed will was that He give us free will so that we would choose Him? And the only thing He did was wooed us to choose Him because then it would not be a choice on our part if He decreed that we would choose Him? It had to be a free choice?

The question that I’m really seeking is (and I know that we’re probably not going to be able to find this one out here on this side of the heavens):

Can somebody explain to me how God’s decreed will (All that the Father gives to Son come to the Son) is not a free choice on my part?

Maybe I’m mistaken when I write his decreed will.

Didn’t I freely come? Why did I come? I don’t read Him saying they might come. I know it was a free choice on His part to give me to the Son. He did not have to do that. He was not influenced by me to do that.
I know there are two parallel truths: God chose me before the foundation of the world and I need to willingly choose Him (and in our dead state or our sinful nature we were enemies and nobody was willing to choose Him because we hated God and were hostile towards God and nobody was seeking God - Romans 3). I’m not going to pretend you understand that. I know they are both true. And nowhere in the Bible does it say God chose me because He knew that I would follow Him. That would mean that He chose me because He knew I would do something. It would mean I influenced Him to choose me because of something I did or am going to do. The two parallel truths. The Bible affirms both of those truths. The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.

Twin Truth: the sovereignty of God in the responsibility of man by Dr. MacArthur explains this really well.

All in all your statement about the essentials are correct. We worship the same Christ. And we will not lose our salvation over it. Whatever side of this conversation I’m believing I’m 100% sure I will see my Christian Arminian friends in heaven!

Maybe the question would be better put… Can anything happen outside of the ordination of God’s Providence?

2 Likes

Maybe the question would be better put… Can anything happen outside of the ordination of God’s Providence?

1 Like

Corey, in response to your response to me and also to this question:

how would you define “ordained”? I’m not sure the Scripture you have given in support of the concept “God has ordained all things” is actually saying that. There is a difference between having power over things, having rule over things–and ordaining things. The two concepts are not synonymous or interchangeable. God can ordain because He has power over all things, but it is a logical fallacy to say: God has power over all things. Therefore, He ordains all things. The Bible does use the word “ordained,” and no where does it use “ordain” to refer to God’s power over all things. Having power over all things is a state…a fact. It is not an act. Ordination is an act. Thoughts?

There are many presuppositions in Piper’s talk that I need to take a look at. I originally wrote out some of them here, but I am going to try and think it through a little better before posting.

1 Like

Hi, Corey, in view of what you have said here, again, I put the question to you: Why argue if you have made up your mind? You are asking for an argument while adamantly telling us you will disagree with the Armenian perspective. Are you wanting to check your understanding…to see if we can persuade you? If not, I lovingly suggest this discussion may not be fruitful. Although it is okay to explore differences, argument for the sake of argument can be divisive. I know you think this is important for responding to people’s questions about evil and suffering, but since you have already made up your mind, it seems you would have a perspective from which to respond to those questions already. So what are your thoughts on how this discussion could help you with that if you have already made up your mind?

2 Likes

I see what you’re saying. Maybe I thought you guys might have had somebody that would be able to argue Romans 9 better than Leighton Flowers. I’ve also heard comments about the book chosen but free. Maybe I should read the book first but from what I heard they either destroy one doctrine or the other (predestination, election and man’s responsibility) or make it even more confusing by trying to harmonize them. Both sides say they are misunderstanding scripture. I feel like I’m stuck in the middle. But obviously I’m not if I’ve made up my mind. I hope you’re not looking at the argue in a negative way. I guess my thoughts would be that it just makes my argument stronger from hearing the other side. I like to know how to defend myself when somebody insists that we will lose our salvation by killing our faith(by not reading the Bible and not praying and not being a part of a church), in so doing, nit doing something will kill our faith and we’ll end up losing our Salvation because we killed our own faith (and that would mean that Christ lost one of his sheep because he didn’t know how to chasten His own sheep and bring them back to the flock). I think it’s good for us to know how to grab a hold of the promises in Scripture and defend ourselves and our faith like many many great men and women have for centuries before us. Much love and respect. I guess this is the end of this conversation.

Sorry for any fruitlessness.

2 Likes

Hi, Corey. Thank you for explaining some about the heart behind the argument. I fully appreciate and am grateful for your concerns and your desire to encourage Christ’s followers to grab onto His promises. That is, in fact, a very beneficial pursuit for which to argue.

This is partially why I asked…you say you made up your mind and yet you are asking for the best argument for certain things. If you feel like you are stuck in the middle, are you sure you’ve made up your mind? Our purpose is to help you, to help each other, grow as disciples of Christ and grow in our ability to respond to others, and in order to do that, it is important to try to discern the “why” behind the argument :slight_smile:. It will help give us a better focus in discussion.

The argument itself is not positive or negative (that is, if it is done in the right spirit, which I think you did a good job of :slight_smile:) . It is a tool, and a tool can be used in a negative or positive way. One of the things my pastor said to me when I first started trying to convince him to let me start an apologetics study at our church was that apologetics had been used to “beat people over the head,” and my response was, “People have done the same with baseball bats, but people still use those.” The use of the tool can be good for us, but it depends on how we use it–the how and the why, if that makes sense.

I don’t think it was fruitless as far as what has already been discussed, but I was concerned about it not really being of any benefit (fruitless) for you since you said you’d made up your mind. We are here to care for each other and to help each other grow. Really, there aren’t “sides” among brothers and sisters-- only understanding of perspectives. If you really do feel stuck in the middle, that might be worth exploring, and this might be worth continuing to pursue in conversation :slight_smile:.

Hm, it would indeed be concerning to hear someone insisting we will lose our salvation by killing our faith (not reading the Bible and not praying and not being a part of the church). Do you think that responding to this has to be based from an Armenian vs. Reformer perspective, or do you think this is a faith vs. works issue and a discussion, perhaps, on what “working out our salvation” might look like? I think there are “once save, always saved” proponents coming from both the Armenian and the Reformer perspectives. I am of the Armenian and, for now, hold to “once saved, always saved.” So if this is your concern, perhaps we are tending to the wrong arguments?

2 Likes

Yeah I guess this is something that I barely started hearing about.
You said:
“I am of the Armenian and, for now, hold to “once saved, always saved.” So if this is your concern, perhaps we are tending to the wrong arguments?”

Many of my Armenian friends would argue that you could lose your salvation once you’re saved by not doing a b d c e f and g in so doing you would lose your faith because you killed it yourself by becoming an apostate.

So when we are saved there’s nothing that can separate us from the love of God, correct?

This is what I’m trying to get at… If God Before Time began predestined that some would be saved doesn’t He have the right to do that?

Everybody would agree that He does.

But then they say that He doesn’t do it that way but He leaves our destiny in our hand.

I’m not reading that from scripture when I read he chose us before the foundation of the world.

Or when I read that all that the Father gave to the Son come to the Son.

So everything that happens in existence happened in eternity past end everything that is bound on Earth is bound in heaven and loosed on Earth is loosed in heaven (matt. 6:19)

The church’s authority is not to determine these things but to declare the judgment of heaven based on the principles of the Word. When churches make such judgments on the basis of God’s Word, they can be sure heaven is in accord. In other words, whatever they “bind” or “loose” on earth is already “bound” or “loosed” in heaven. When the church says the unrepentant person is bound in sin, the church is saying what God says about that person. When the church acknowledges that a repentant person has been loosed from that sin, God agrees ( commentary from MacArthur Study Bible)

This is the part that I’m not understanding.

If people are lost, where they His sheep?
Wouldn’t that mean that they weren’t his sheep because all His sheep come to Him, correct?

How do they become one of His sheep? By choosing Him first or by the Father giving them to the Son and the Son coming down from heaven into time and dying for His sheep/ brothers/ bride?

Would it be outside of His control if one person is lost?

He didn’t plan for people to be lost but He planned to save some out of the lump of clay according to the kind intentions of His will to the praise of the glory of His grace. Is this statment not right?

And if He chose to not save some there is no Injustice in God because we willingly sinned against Him. He just decided to give some justice. And Those whom He decided to have mercy on it was not by anything they’ve done or willed.

So how is anything outside of the ordination of his Providence.

Here goes a better definition on how to explain Providence of God from RC:

And the transcript from RC explaining how God ordains everything that comes to pass:

1 Like

Thank you for your patience with me, Corey. I have read your response and am about to read the articles, and let me think and pray and get back to you :slight_smile:

1 Like

I would actually say thank you for your patience with me. I really appreciate you going through this with me.

1 Like

It’s a pleasure and a privilege, Corey. I will get back with you when I feel I have a beneficial response composed :slight_smile: