Relationship with Jesus

(David Cieszynski) #1

Hi everyone,

The wife and I have differing views on what been Christian is meant to be. For me it’s trying to live my life according to scripture and live my life according to His will. I don’t believe in ‘once save always saved’.

My wife doesn’t think one can lose their Salvation even if they wonder off track and don’t necessarily live a Christian life. And this is my question for the primary thing if being a Christian is being in relationship with Jesus nothing else matters. For me this doesn’t sit right in my mind / belief. Any thoughts welcomed.

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(SeanO) #2

@David_Cieszynski May the Lord Jesus grant you both wisdom, peace and unity :slight_smile: There are two versions of ‘once saved always saved’ where I grew up. One says, “If you live a life of habitual sin and unbelief you were never saved”. The other says, “As long as you repented at some point in your life no matter what you do you go to Heaven.” The first view is at least within the confines of Biblical truth - it is a possibility. The second view is entirely unBiblical.

So, instead of focusing on once saved always saved at first, perhaps start by looking at some Bible passages about bearing fruit prayerfully together. As long as she takes sin and repentance seriously, I would not get hung up on labels. And always remember - “If we confess our sins to God He is faithful and just to forgives us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” I John 1:9

  • What does it mean to be in relationship with Jesus? In the Bible, there is a very close connection between walking with God (in the Spirit) and obedience (Romans 8 / Galatians 5). Jesus said that those who love Him obey Him (John 14:15) and Paul is clear that sin has no place in the life of the believer - shall we sin that grace may abound - God forbid!
  • What do we make of the stern warning against those who turn back on the truth of Christ? Peter says it would have been better if they had never known the truth.
  • What do we make of Jesus’ warning that the branches that do not produce fruit will be thrown away and burned? Hebrews makes a similar point about those who have fallen away. These are very serious warnings.

John 14:15 - If you love me, keep my commands.

John 15:5-6 - “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

2 Peter 2:17-22 - These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Hebrews 6:4-8 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

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(Whitney Bowman) #3

Thanks Sean. Going back a bit, with the first view is it possible to know you are saved?

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(SeanO) #4

@wbowman I do not hold that position myself. However, I think that believing in ‘once saved always saved’ and knowing you are saved could be separate issues. The first view of ‘once saved always saved’, as I have seen it practiced, does not demand perfection but does expect that we grow more like Christ as we mature in our walk with Him. That is a fairly normal way of thinking about knowing you are saved - the witness of the Holy Spirit, love for God and neighbor and belief in the death, resurrection and return of Jesus Christ.

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(Whitney Bowman) #5

Thanks!! I’ve been reading up on the topic from several ministries the last few weeks, and there are a lot of viewpoints – it honestly hadn’t dawned on me there was a possibility for such diversity. These threads are quite helpful!

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(SeanO) #6

@wbowman Glad you found them helpful :slight_smile: If you want to discuss any specific questions issues feel free to post questions here on Connect and we can process through them in community. Christ guide you as you study the Word.

(Sanjib ghosh) #7

Dear @SeanO,
meaningful answers.

I am just wondering how one verse can fit in this context
wha does refer here 1Tim 2:15 – that women will be saved through childbearing?what kind of saved and its conditionally(as verse mentioned ‘If’)?

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(SeanO) #8

@san That is a great question and indeed quite a zinger :slight_smile: This is a very hard text to understand. There are a number of interpretations I have heard. I do not know exactly which one is correct, but I know which one is not correct. Women are not saved by having babies :wink: They are saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus, as are all people.

Here are the interpretations I have heard:

  1. This could be translated “women will be saved through the childbearing” - the addition of the definite article would point to Jesus. Jesus was ‘the child’ - ‘the seed’ of Eve born to crush the serpent and set mankind free.
  2. Childbearing was a way to keep women in that context from becoming gossips / busybodies & straying away from God. Paul is basically telling the women to fulfill their societal role rather than being idle in the same way he told men not to be lazy but to work with their hands and earn the respect of outsiders.
  3. N. T. Wright takes the view that the point of this passage is that the woman, even though she has to give childbirth underneath the curse, will be ‘kept safe’ through childbirth. In other words, Christ has reversed the effects of the curse. His translation is below.

1 Timothy 2:15 - She will, however, be kept safe through the process of childbirth, if she continues in faith, love and holiness with prudence. –N. T. Wright’s Translation

Hope that is helpful :slight_smile: Christ grant you wisdom.

(Sanjib ghosh) #9

Dear @SeanO,
thank you,
quite interesting to move ahead.

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(David Cieszynski) #10

Thanks Sean,

I really appreciate your thoughtful words, the difference between our belief comes down to I tend be on the more traditional beliefs while my wife leans more towards liberal aspect.

We tend to agree to disagree : -)

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(Micah Bush) #11

@san Something else that is helpful to consider when reading I Timothy 2:15 is that Artemis, the patron goddess of Ephesus, was a goddess of childbirth and midwifery; in addition, a primary reason why Paul wanted Timothy to stay in Ephesus was so he could “command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies” (I Timothy 1:3-4, NIV). One line of thought, then (I’ve included a link to a full explanation below), is that people in Ephesus were trying to syncretize their new Christian faith with their old pagan beliefs, appealing to Artemis to protect women in childbirth (which was a far more dangerous venture back then). Thus, Paul’s message to women in I Timothy 2 is essentially, “Ladies, stop living like worldly women and teaching about matters that you don’t understand. Sit down, adopt the attitude of students, and put what you learn into practice; God, not pagan deities, will protect and provide for you.”