After receiving the Grace of JESUS; do we continue to live beneath privilege if we readily assume the impact of the curse handed down in Eden? Curses that were injected into the human experience because of sin. Why doesn’t redemptive grace free us from its impact? (See Genesis 3 KJV.) This is a question I am addressing in a paper I am writing. I have received various answers and thought it would be prudent to open the topic for more input.
@cer7 - I’m not sure what it means to ‘live beneath privilege’, but @Lakshmismehta started a topic here called: Role of the Holy Spirit in the saving faith of OT saints
and @SeanO posted an article by John Piper about how believers experienced the Holy Spirit before Pentecost here: https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/how-believers-experienced-the-spirit-before-pentecost
I don’t know if that would help any, but after you read it would you say John Piper is saying that we shouldn’t be living beneath privilege, but rather should wake up to our privileges and powers in the Holy Spirit?
Good luck on your paper
@tabby68. Thanks for those references. What I mean by beneath privilege is whether living with the curses handed down to mankind in Genesis 3 are reversible under grace and the power of the cross. Does grace bring both spiritual and physical wholeness?
@cer7 I think the old preacher saying applies here - in Christ we are set free from the power and penalty of sin, but not the presence of sin. Our bodies still die and our flesh still wages war with the Spirit, but by the grace of God we are free from sin’s penalty and are able to live a righteous life by the power of the Holy Spirit. Also the concept of already, but not yet - we are already free from the curse of sin by Christ, but we have not yet experienced all the benefits of that freedom.
As Romans 8 says, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to it. However, we still are waiting for the ‘redemption of our bodies’.
Our bodies still get sick - we still die. We still struggle against sin. But as Christians we have the power over sin and are free from its penalty. One day when we have a new and glorious body we will be free from these things - we will see Jesus and be as He is…
I John 3:2 - Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Romans 7:24-25 - What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Romans 8:22-25 - We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Romans 8:12-13 - Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Galatians 5:17,24-25 - For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
@cer7 - Oh I see now. This is interesting. I will be following this thread to learn more. Thanks for your reply
@cer7, and @SeanO - (Forgive my ignorance if I ask any irrelevant questions, but this topic as @cer7 further explained makes me think of something I read in the book: “What’s the Truth About Heaven and Hell?”) On p. 71 (in the chapter called “Heaven on Earth”) a passage reads:
“N.T. Wright, with an eye on John 1:14 and 2:21, explains that “the Father’s house” in John 14:2 refers not to a future heaven but to the present. The “house” is no physical structure (such as the temple) any more than the body of Christ is made with bricks and mortar. McGuiggan agrees, though he believes John 14 refers to our future life on earth. John 14 in this case has nothing to do with a rapture, but the restoration of the dwelling of God with man. Such an interpretation fits the context and flow of John 14 better than the traditional view, Jesus promises his presence; he will come (through the Holy Spirit) to those who obey him (14:23). This would be a sudden change of subject if the early verses were talking about a rapture.”
Would there need to be some interpretation of heaven?
@cer7 may have some additional thoughts. Based on my understanding of the question, Heaven is when we will finally experience the fullness of what Christ purchased for us on the Christ - Heaven being a New Heavens and New earth.
First allow me to inject, @tabby68 Your email came through about a little before five am, but I was wide awake already. SeanO did that. But your email left me grinning from ear to ear. I thought how sweet it is to be loved by the people of GOD!
@SeanO we arrive at the same conclusions, you, my Primary Physician and myself. It made perfect sense until I considered the life of Enoch, son of Jared and father of Methuselah. Then I remembered the leaving of the prophet Elijah in a fiery chariot. That brought my reasoning into conflict. These were clear examples of humans for whom the physical barriers of this sinful world had been aborted. These men did not know the punishment of death.
Then I begin to remember occasion after occasion when the laws of this world were suspended. My goodness, the bones of Elias retain such anointing that a dying man tossed into his grave stood up and begin to live again! So now the question has become whether it is a mistake to consider the character of GOD mine’s too possess because the Grace of the Cross has made me a co-heir.
I am about to conclude that what I might want to call privilege is actually evidence of the presence of GOD which of course is never reliant upon anything I do or say.
When I was a little girl one of my first heroes was Enoch. I decided that I would walk with GOD so that I too would walk away from this world. I think what I did not realize was that Enoch was not the reason he was taken away by GOD; it was all GOD. When I think over what we consider miraculous and supernatural I am seeing a portion of the nature of GOD. What suspends the effect of our world is not privilege but all of creation obeying the presence of GOD. For me, possibly the greatest evidence of GOD.
What is truly head-scratching is that the omnipresence of GOD is everywhere and in all situations. I think I understand better why Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendago could say throw us into the furnace. GOD can deliver us but if He does not, GOD is still GOD. We will bow to none other. With trepidation I must conclude, only because I am human and I possess this huge “ouch” factor; but I must conclude that GOD is GOD is GOD.
There is no question of living beneath privilege, there is just my willingness to live as if GOD is GOD and worthy of all my trust and love. Whether I get to walk past death or the pains of this world; I can live with the assurance that when GOD is in the mix, His will gets done.
I am still open to more input. This is just where my reasoning has driven me.
Ref: 2 Kings 2:9&11, 2 Kings 13:21, Genesis 5:21-24, Daniel 3:16-18 KJV.
@tabby68. I like Sean’s description of Heaven. I must admit, the idea of all that Heaven represents overwhelms me. I really have to think about specifics but I find I usually leave out some of its characteristics. For now, let me back away slowly from the topic. I am going to try for a nap. Writing about Heaven would knock that beyond my grasp.
@cer7 and @SeanO - you guys (or I should say guy and gal ) are wonderful to interact with as you seem to have such a sweet spirit (definitely the Holy Spirit within you) and because we are brothers and sisters in Christ that makes it even more wonderful.
I tend to be more of a traditional thinker in regards to interpretation, so I agree with y’all and very thankful for 1 John 3:2 because like the thief on the cross it sometimes seems unfair that for me and my life of Christ within me through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has been a shorter span than many others (or maybe just not as close of a walk over all these years when I should have been paying more attention to that small still voice within). I don’t believe I will ever be “whole” until Christ’s return and I receive my new body.
(A lot off topic, but I think it’s cool when we can relate to a character from the Bible. Your comparison to Enoch as a child is so honest and reminds me of Christ with the little children and said, “Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15)
It’s kinda sad, yet true, but among some of the characters that I relate to, one of the characters that stand out to me is Jacob’s firstborn Reuben…ouch, it hurt when the Holy Spirit revealed that to me because I tend to flip-flop and I am so afraid of becoming lukewarm and not taking a stand on one side or the other.
College paper I once read discussed this in these words;
Jewish Eschatological Framework: this age vs. the age to come.
Inaugurated Eschatological Framework: there is an “overlapping of the ages” referred to as the “now/not yet”.
Discussion came out of book by Geerhardus Vos, Biblical Theology: old and new testaments.